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Old 07-07-2018, 19:45   #31
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

For the <5K project boat, what exactly is it that you hope to learn from a professional survey? Would you possibly back out of the purchase as a result of the surveyor's report? What condition would cause you to back out of the purchase that a professional surveyor might uncover that you maybe didn't already have an inkling of from your own inspection? Now I am assuming that you've taken a look at Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" or some similar resource, and have thoroughly inspected the boat yourself already so you should know what you are getting into with your project.....
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Old 07-07-2018, 23:12   #32
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

"Surveyors - How Many do You Need?"

There are two direct answers, but neither are useful: 1/ How many can you afford? 2/ How much wood could a woodchuck chuck.... Shop around. See if you can find a surveyor who will at least inspect the hull and related, along with the rigging. If you can find a neutral and affordable mechanic for the engine, so much the better.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:30   #33
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

When purchasing a used sailing yacht it is wise to hire separate hull, engine/equipment and rigging surveys. Additionally I would have a knowledgeable sail maker survey the sail inventory. Usually the hauled-out hull survey comes last, so as to avoid that huge expense in case the other surveys fail.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:03   #34
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

I don’t mean to come down on marine surveys and surveyors too hard. They aren’t any worse that home inspectors. I understand that insurance companies won’t insure a hull without one. But I have never seen a report that I couldn’t have done myself and saved the money. Over the years I’ve paid anywhere from $300 to $1,600 each for them plus $500 for an engine survey by a “highly recommended” (are there any other kind) engine surveyor who took oil samples from both engines and lost or failed to follow up with the lab so I only got one report back. But they charged me their full price quoted.

As with riggers who do mast surveys, hull and engine surveys have absolutely no warranties, expressed or implied, and there is little or no legal liability unless a case of gross negligence can be made, which would imply that a surveyor’s oversite was so egregious as to have caused a death or serious injury. Even then collecting is virtually impossible.

So take them for what they are, namely the surveyor’s “to do list” as if he or she were buying the boat and not anything you can take to the bank. Get ‘er done, consider it part of the insurance cost and enjoy the sailing.
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Old 08-07-2018, 18:52   #35
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

of course I (potential buyer) don't expect my surveyor to be a Diesel mechanic or climb the mast to inspect the masthead and the sheaves. But I do expect that his overlooking of the boat in detail with the owner and myself in tow will be a tremendous learning experience and will serve as a sensible bargaining platform.
The buyer should be fully prepared and knowledgeable about the boat. He should ask tons of questions even if some seem redundant or kind of dumb. He should have compiled notes ahead of times and take notes during the survey....
Did I miss anything?
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Old 08-07-2018, 19:10   #36
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

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Originally Posted by ferrailleur View Post
of course I (potential buyer) don't expect my surveyor to be a Diesel mechanic or climb the mast to inspect the masthead and the sheaves. But I do expect that his overlooking of the boat in detail with the owner and myself in tow...
Good luck with that.

Unsubscribed.
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Old 09-07-2018, 15:13   #37
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

I would think it would be the rare owner that would add much value to the process.

But as the paying client I will definitely be there, since the survey will immediately stop if a dealbreaker problem is discovered.
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Old 13-07-2018, 06:35   #38
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

ZERO! hire a good mechanic for the engine parts, let a rigger inspect your standing gear and someone you know is working with GRP. Usually you are below 400 USD and get more an professional information. A surveyor will charge you at minimum 800 USD/€
for notting but:


I have seen an outboard type XY and it looks like it is in working condition.
Phew - Damn, test it...

The difference is: the surveyour is like an expert witness at law. He only tells you proofable truth while the others tell you out of their practice what it is actually up to and this is MOST valuable then else.
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Old 13-07-2018, 07:41   #39
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post

clip...

In looking for a good surveyor - ideally local to the boat, do people really pay for airline tickets?

What should my terminology be for what I'm looking for, not a full standard insurance valuation, just enough to decide whether or not I'm going to buy the boat?

Hoping for a grand or under. . .
Not the OP but germane to the discussion so I left the pertinent parts.

We surveyed two Morgan 46s - one each 462 and 461.

On the first, I was adequately nervous to pay a separate engine (both genset and aux) survey. His survey didn't kill the deal, but my "standard" surveyor's report ultimately did.

That surveyor happened to be ideal, as he'd been quality control and service manager for Morgan during the entire production run of our model and was therefore very familiar with it. He also was one who'd go up a mast.

He was called, in the industry, as "All Day Pete" as he never took less than a full day to do a survey, including sea trial. In our cases, it was two days.

And we paid for him to drive across FL from St. Pete, where he lived, and for the motel where he stayed.

We've spent some hundreds, perhaps, but at least one, of thousands of dollars on our home since then. But I consider the fee and associated travel/stay costs to have him there to be one of the better bargains.

You already own the boat, so it's a bit different; just by chance, our boat started life as a Moorings charter, too, though 40 years ago, and spent the first 5 years in Tortola and the second 5 in Grenada...

I don't know what Moorings' responsibilities are relative to returning the boat to your CC&C, but if it were that all systems had to be in good nick, or they'd have to pay the repairs, then I'd invest whatever I had to in order to get the best there was to go over it with a fine toothed comb.

OTOH, if the deal is that when it's finished they are only responsible for turning over maintenance records, then I'd say thank you and go sailing, unless you were really nervous about something you'd seen on an owner's week or however it is that you get to use the boat.

My two cents; your bux
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Old 13-07-2018, 12:38   #40
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

Great idea but not acceptable to insurance companies or lenders if those factors are important.
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Old 13-07-2018, 13:31   #41
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

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Great idea but not acceptable to insurance companies or lenders if those factors are important.
Heh. I take the point.

However, my experience with insurance surveys is that they are considerably less thorough than what I'd want as a buyer.

OTOH, if I already own it, whatever the insurer wants is what they get...
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Old 15-07-2018, 08:18   #42
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

Competent surveyors know the only way to thoroughly evaluate standing rigging is magnafluxing...which can't be done in the field. Otherwise visual inspection only tells you a small percentage of the actual condition. The rig is compromised long before external cracks are evident.

Bad wire that looks brand new will break strands when coiled but otherwise pass a visual inspection with flying colors...same with turnbuckles. I've seen wire cruised full time for 10 yrs so brittle it broke every wire many (more than 2 or 3) strands when coiled. On the flip side I've replaced 15 yr old wire that acted like new while when coiled. I've seen 20+ yr old wire cruise from Florida to Alaska and back without rig problems too.
It always makes sense to visually check for broken sheaves or external cracks, etc as general maintenance though.
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Old 15-07-2018, 13:10   #43
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

When we bought our boat i flew a surveyor of good reputation from texas to florida and paid for meals and lodging for two days- he did a great job and discovered issues that dropped the price close to 30k- the issues were repairable but dramatically affected the price- one was a rigging issue that would have caused us to lose the mast in rough weather on the way home if it had not been caught. Had a separate local guy do the engine as well as an oil test- i looked at compressions and oil test results myself to verify them as I didnt know this guy. Had a local guy also do the mast top rigging (was very cheap and I had them do a spare halyard rig while up there)-- all in all it was money well spent and i had a great list of things to start putting right on the boat.
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Old 15-07-2018, 13:43   #44
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Re: Surveyors - How Many do You Need

Quote:
Originally Posted by moseriw View Post
ZERO! hire a good mechanic for the engine parts, let a rigger inspect your standing gear and someone you know is working with GRP. Usually you are below 400 USD and get more an professional information. A surveyor will charge you at minimum 800 USD/€
for notting but:


I have seen an outboard type XY and it looks like it is in working condition.
Phew - Damn, test it...

The difference is: the surveyour is like an expert witness at law. He only tells you proofable truth while the others tell you out of their practice what it is actually up to and this is MOST valuable then else.
I had one like that. Typed up everything I told him. In all honesty I believe he had just gotten to old. When you need to push him up the ladder? My fault, I should have vetted him better. Do your homework prior to engaging one.
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