Stupid question about Great Lakes vs Ocean

[nuru05]

So I have a dumb question, what are the waves and wind like on the ocean vs the Great Lakes, Lake Michigan specifically? We’ve been cruising around the west side of Lake Michigan this summer on a 42’ moody and to be honest, it sucks. First of all the wind changes direction at least every 24 hours, so it’s extremely hard to find a protected anchorage because we know at 2am the wind is going to shift and come in at 15 kts from the opposite side. This is complicated by the fact that any time the wind gets above about 10 knots for more than a few hours the water gets so rolly that you can’t even stand. We had basically no wind yesterday and not it’s at like 12 kts coming from the north and we are trying to go south, but if I even come 30 degrees of straight with the waves it starts rolling us so hard our rails almost hit the water. I don’t think it would be such a big deal if the waves weren’t every 3-5 seconds so we never even get a chance to stop rolling.


Am I missing something? Is the frequency of waves on the ocean anywhere near what it is on big lakes? Because this is terrible, most of our sailing was always done in the apostles which were partially shielded but if I tried to actually sail this today we’d be tossing everything inside the boat and someone would get hurt, and the waves are only like 2’

[Grith]

I will be interested to see the reply’s from people experienced there. We sail our 28 foot trailerable cruiser in Lake Alexandrina in South Australia, a 30 square mile lake with an average depth of around 6 feet known for it’s steep short waves in moderate breezes.
We just choose our timing to be sailing downwind when the waves really get up and due to our ability to retract our keel run right into shallow water to anchor/moor right in the reed beds or beaches on the edge of the lake out of the waves.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by nuru05

So I have a dumb question, what are the waves and wind like on the ocean vs the Great Lakes, Lake Michigan specifically? We’ve been cruising around the west side of Lake Michigan this summer on a 42’ moody and to be honest, it sucks. First of all the wind changes direction at least every 24 hours, so it’s extremely hard to find a protected anchorage because we know at 2am the wind is going to shift and come in at 15 kts from the opposite side. This is complicated by the fact that any time the wind gets above about 10 knots for more than a few hours the water gets so rolly that you can’t even stand. We had basically no wind yesterday and not it’s at like 12 kts coming from the north and we are trying to go south, but if I even come 30 degrees of straight with the waves it starts rolling us so hard our rails almost hit the water. I don’t think it would be such a big deal if the waves weren’t every 3-5 seconds so we never even get a chance to stop rolling.





Am I missing something? Is the frequency of waves on the ocean anywhere near what it is on big lakes? Because this is terrible, most of our sailing was always done in the apostles which were partially shielded but if I tried to actually sail this today we’d be tossing everything inside the boat and someone would get hurt, and the waves are only like 2’

No you are not missing something. I also have sailed the West shore of lake Michigan and, it often sucks. Particularly in the spring and fall when the weather is so changeable. It can be okay during the summer.The ocean is very different. The waves are much shorter period in that part of lake Michigan often, and yeah the wind shifts a lot. Might be true of the other Great Lakes, I just don't know. Get out to the coast, and even better, off shore and I think you'll like it a lot more.

Obviously it can get pretty wicked in the ocean, particularly with wind against wave like in the Gulf stream. But that's a special situation that's usually easily avoided.

[Mike OReilly]

I spent more than a decade on Lake Superior, the North Channel and Lake Ontario. And I've sailed Huron, Georgian Bay and Erie, although never Michigan. Since 2017 I've sailed Newfoundland.

The waves on the Great Lakes do tend to be shorter wavelength, and steeper in nature. This is more true for the smaller Lakes than the larger ones, but it really depends on which direction the wind is blowing.

Seas can build up much faster on the GL than the oceans. And continental weather is far more variable and quickly-changable than ocean weather. But of course, on the oceans, everything can be bigger; bigger winds, bigger waves, bigger weather systems.

[tkeithlu]

THAT...............was not a stupid question.

[valhalla360]

Generally, you don't anchor ON Lake Michigan (except maybe on a calm day to take a swim). You anchor in a port just off the lake. Generally the Michigan side has more options vs Wisconsin.

Yeah, the wave pattern is more often short period and steep. There isn't enough distance for them to spread out into a long swell. Also, it can get surprisingly bad. Usually the west side of the lake is better with the prevailing wind patterns but it's not a guarantee.

I recall sitting on a dune at the entrance to Holland Michigan on a really windy day. A CG cutter went out. As soon as it cleared the break water, it would completely disappear in the wave troughs. They quickly turned around and headed back in. Checked NOAA and they were reporting 30ft seas.

It's easy to see the word Lake and mistakenly treat it as such. They really are inland seas.

[Sailorman97]

If you don't like that your going to hate Lake Erie.

[JPA Cate]

Fresh water is different from salt. And one of the differences is the wave periods and steepness. Lots of square waves. Ocean waves can get square, though, usually in shallower water (less than 50 ft.), and when a new wind direction first picks up.

Sorry you didn't like what the wind gods gave you. Michievous thugs that they are, they do not have your preferences in mind at all. Just stay aware and don't let them sneak up on you with evil surprises. Usually, a new bit of wavelets or wind ripples will presage a wind shift before it arrives.

Ann

[AKA-None]

If you aren’t fond of Lake Michigan then you’ll probably not care for Lake Superior as it’s much deeper and tends to get nastier once fired up

And it has a much longer fetch so the waves can build

The song about the Edmund Fitchgerald is not make believe when it speaks of the potential weather

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's easy to see the word Lake and mistakenly treat it as such. They really are inland seas.

That is what I tell people. Lots of ghosts at the bottom. People who said it was only a lake, nothing to worry about. Literally hundreds of wrecks at the eastern end of Lake Ont. One site on the internet says 750 wrecks within 30 miles of Prince Edward County.

[Joli]

I've raced on all the Great Lakes except Superior, to damn cold to do the Trans Superior. The Macs are great, the levels in Youngstown were fun and I've raced thousands of races on Lake Erie. The Great Lakes can be brutal, Erie can give you an 8-12 foot waves with a 4 second period. Anyone who thinks they are ponds hasn't sailed them.

Three years ago we left the lakes through the St Lawrence Seaway and have been passaging between the East Coast and the Caribbean, about 20,000 since we left. We're currently in Trinidad.

To try and answer your question.

Sailing. The ocean and the lakes are different. The waves are bigger but generally the period is much longer. The exception to that is the Caribbean, the Caribbean two step has a period similar to the Great Lakes. Easting from the VI's can be brutal when reinforced trade winds are blowing. The jump to St Martin can be a tough upwind grind.

Coming down last year the passage from Bermuda was fantastic. Five days of port tack reaching with 6-15' waves abeam or on the quarter we're magic. The year before we beat for five days with a triple reef and a staysail. The waves were maybe 20' and a 10 second period? So rough but not Great Lakes rough but some of these waves didn't have backs and dropping off them was tough.

Anchoring, most bays are will protected and have little wave action, the breeze in the Caribbean is generally East. Anchoring on open roadsteads can be rolly if the swell wraps around. Sometimes you have far off frontal systems that will deliver a swell that is uncomfortable or even dangerous. You just move.

If you can sail the Great Lakes you'll do fine on the ocean. Just expect everything to be bigger.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

...Generally the Michigan side has more options vs Wisconsin...

...Usually the west side of the lake is better with the prevailing wind patterns but it's not a guarantee.

Thinking of doing the Great Loop, and the question comes up: Which side to run down Lake Michigan to Chicago?

Not looking for guarantees, of course. Just your thoughts.

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

If you don't like that your going to hate Lake Erie.

You got that right. Prevailing winds blow the full length of the Lake and it's only like 60 feet deep in most places. The chop can be brutal. Ontario has the same wind pattern but it's very deep so not as bad. Michigan and Huron prevailing blow the short dimension so not as much fetch but the nearby land causes a lot of shifts and velocity changes. When the wind goes north or south, the downwind ends of Michigan and Huron can build some impressive waves and they're a lot closer together than you'd see on the open ocean.

[Tetepare]

I think we have the chop pretty well covered.

And, yes, GL can be very dangerous. There are indeed thousands of wrecks. Here's a cool recap of the 1913 loss of the 80ft, 187 ton lightship on Lake Erie. https://images.maritimehistoryoftheg...s.asp?ID=57691

GLs being surrounded by land generate thermals. It's not uncommon, particularly in summer, for there to be an onshore breeze everywhere around a lake- so in Canada it's from the south, in NY it's from the North. And in the middle it's dead.

Or vice versa. The lake can be roaring but just offshore it's dead because the counter-breeze from land counters it.

And, breezes are odd. Last month my friends were headed to where I was lounging in the lake. We were just offshore, swimming and playing; no sense sailing there was zero wind. Our friends, just 100km away, reported to be taking a beating with 15-20kts on the nose. So you never know.

Chop or otherwise, sailing GL can be marvelous. Perfect summer breezes 15-20 from the south aren't uncommon. September and October can bring fabulous steady breezes with limited chop.

[SV Siren]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Thinking of doing the Great Loop, and the question comes up: Which side to run down Lake Michigan to Chicago?

Not looking for guarantees, of course. Just your thoughts.

To be honest, the eastern side has many ports of call.