Steve & Linda Dashew retire

[Polux]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

...
Regarding the whole 'pollution/global warming' discussion - do realize that one of Steve's primary design factors for the power boat was very high efficiency at cruising speed (vs other power boats). They valued and prioritized that over high top speed, unlike many/most power boats (most of which are less efficient in actual cruising use).

Doing an honest and complete comparison between an efficient power boat to a sail boat in actual real world cruising usage usage is difficult. But you do have to somehow factor in that most sailing cruisers in fact actually motor quite a bit. 50% of miles (or hours) motored is not at all uncommon today among the sailing fleet. The Dashew's motored quite a bit when they were on their sail boats. And they are not all that optimized for that motoring (props especially - the dashew big sail boats were better at motoring than most but still less good than their power boat). Obviously there is a significant distribution range on motor usage, with some picking one end and others the other, which makes any 'general analysis' difficult.
....

On a previous post I have compare the fuel burned by a FTB, one of their motorboats, doing the ARC with the fuel wasted by the average modern cruising sailboats with the same interior space.

They burned about more than 30 to 40 times diesel than the average sailboat with the same interior (you can find the data on the ARC site).

The diference in tankage between a FTB and a modern boat with about the same interior space tells you all about it. The standard FTB 83 tank has a 12 000 L capacity, the one of a Halberg Rassy 57 about 1000 L that will allow it a much bigger autonomy.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Lower rigs mean also keels can be shorter.
Good on a cruising boat.

Lower rigs also lower the center of effort which increases stability.
Good on a cruising boat.

Slender vessel can more easily be driven through waves.
Good on a cruising boat.
..

Yes that is why today solo racing boats are designed like that. They are designed not only for speed but for easy speed on autopilot, not to roll and to maximize stability.

That is also why fast cruising performance sailboats had adopted that hull shape too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPrU6VsLl8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOuYdAaInmc

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

"disgusted" is a pretty strong word. So is using terms as "good riddance". You do not use that kid of language when someone retires.

You can use "good riddance" when a criminal gets locked up...

.....

Disgusted means strongly disappointed, not liking at all what they were doing and that was: promoting long range motor boating cruising instead of long range sailboat cruising. That's what I meant.

They did not retire from cruising but from the business of promoting and building huge long range cruising motorboats.

They will continue cruising and I wish them good winds....well, not that since they will be motor-boating, maybe nice seas?

[Woodland Hills]

It has been fun reading those who decry the Dashews for promoting the use of fossil fuel driven boats while they extoll the use of sail boats made from petroleum and propelled by fossil fuel made sails and rigging..... I guess their point is that fossil fuels are bad, except when THEY use them because THEY are somehow better or different than the Dashews in some manner they never state. Could it be: "petroleum usage is bad, but only if you use more than me...."?

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

..
We tend to view any sailor's announcement of a personal transition, with respect and support...

Unfortunately, this thread is yet another example of the nastiness on CF. A discussion about two people who have greatly benefited the cruising community and who seem to be very nice, thoughtful, and caring, are dragged into the mud by people with their own agenda, ignorance, arrogance and bigotry.

I have been using "Social Media" decades before the term was invented, and until I joined CF, I never felt the need to put people on the ignore list. Unfortunately, CF has had people who have earned that tagging. Added two more to my growing list today. Shame.

When Steve fell and got hurt recently, it made me wonder if that would push them into retirement. When they announced their retirement, it was not much of a surprise, after all they are not getting any younger. They have a great boat for cruising in one's later years and they need to get going to enjoy the time they have left. We are much younger than the Dashew's but we hear the clock tick tocks....

I always wondered WHY the Dashews continued with the FPBs as long as they did and for as many models. I figured they, or at least Steve, just loved the design and build process.

Personally, I like the way the exterior of the boats look but not so much the interior layout. But there are design choices that have to be made, and I think they made the right ones.

Publishing their books as PDFs and making them available for free to the cruising community was a class act. I managed to buy the physical books, because I wanted copies of them, before they were sold out. Some of the information in the books is dated, basically technology stuff, but much of it is timeless.

Later,
Dan

[250224]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

We have known Steve and Linda for a long time. [snip]

Interesting post, thank you!

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

It has been fun reading those who decry the Dashews for promoting the use of fossil fuel driven boats while they extoll the use of sail boats made from petroleum and propelled by fossil fuel made sails and rigging..... I guess their point is that fossil fuels are bad, except when THEY use them because THEY are be: "petroleum usage is bad, but only if you use more than me...."?

If someone bakes cookies and is passing around the basket, and we each take one, but you decide you can take 20 for yourself because you are hungary. Maybe now there are none left for the next person. Maybe next time, no one bothers to make cookies anymore for anyone.

Designing and promoting powerboats, is like telling everyone they should take whatever they want.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Polux

compare the fuel burned by . . . motorboats . . . with . . . . sailboats

Polux, did you really write multiple posts saying that a sail boat crossing downwind tropical atlantic will burn less fuel than a power boat (in a rally where motoring is penalized in most classes no less). That's really funny that you would think that needs your attention. It is rather obvious.

You must have missed my point if you thought that addressed it at all. I can offer a suggestion to you, which is that perhap you spend a little more time trying to understand what the other person's message is before you start writing. More focus on empathy and less 'I am so smart", I think it would help a ton reduce the conflicts you have with several other posters here.

You have expressed your opinion clearly on power boats - you don't think power boats are the right choice for crossing oceans for you. And Dashew would say that is fine. He would respect your choice. He would hope you would respect his. He wanted to do higher latitudes and extended cruising when he and Linda were older and he decided (and I might note that he is a smart and thoughtful and insightful guy) that an efficient power boat was the best choice for them.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

Maybe next time, no one bothers to make cookies anymore for anyone.

Designing and promoting powerboats, is like telling everyone they should take whatever they want.

LOL, another really funny post.

you know offshore cruising on 80' boats is really not the most socially conscious thing someone can do - whether it be on a sail or power boat. There are much more altruistic things one could do with the wealth and resources that choice uses.

We all make choices, and very few of decide to be Mother Teresa. Choosing a power boat over say an oyster 80 does not exactly make you the devil.

[Colin A]

Originally Posted by Polux

On a previous post I have compare the fuel burned by a FTB, one of their motorboats, doing the ARC with the fuel wasted by the average modern cruising sailboats with the same interior space.

They burned about more than 30 to 40 times diesel than the average sailboat with the same interior (you can find the data on the ARC site).

The diference in tankage between a FTB and a modern boat with about the same interior space tells you all about it. The standard FTB 83 tank has a 12 000 L capacity, the one of a Halberg Rassy 57 about 1000 L that will allow it a much bigger autonomy.

On that post as I recall the 78 foot model burned 33 liter an hour combined on both engines at 10 knots. For reference on coastal boats the last 75' sport fish I was on burned close to a 1000 liter an hour at cruise (30 knots) and ran between FL and New England yearly As well as 20-30 tournaments a year.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Polux, did you really write multiple posts saying that a sail boat crossing downwind tropical atlantic will burn less fuel than a power boat (in a rally where motoring is penalized in most classes no less). That's really funny that you would think that needs your attention. It is rather obvious.

You must have missed my point if you thought that addressed it at all. I can offer a suggestion to you, which is that perhap you spend a little more time trying to understand what the other person's message is before you start writing. More focus on empathy and less 'I am so smart", I think it would help a ton reduce the conflicts you have with several other posters here.

You have expressed your opinion clearly on power boats - you don't think power boats are the right choice for crossing oceans for you. And Dashew would say that is fine. He would respect your choice. He would hope you would respect his. He wanted to do higher latitudes and extended cruising when he and Linda were older and he decided (and I might note that he is a smart and thoughtful and insightful guy) that an efficient power boat was the best choice for them.

The longer I have sailed and lived aboard, the more boats I have experience with. The more experience I have had, the more knowledgeable my opinions, TO ME. And, the more knowledgeable my opinions, they less I voice them, because I realize that others have reasons for their opinions, as well.

Often, the most strident have sailed, or thought, and certainly listened, the least. And, some make a habit, or even a lifestyle, of it.

[Bigmarv]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Polux, did you really write multiple posts saying that a sail boat crossing downwind tropical atlantic will burn less fuel than a power boat (in a rally where motoring is penalized in most classes no less). That's really funny that you would think that needs your attention. It is rather obvious.

You must have missed my point if you thought that addressed it at all. I can offer a suggestion to you, which is that perhap you spend a little more time trying to understand what the other person's message is before you start writing. More focus on empathy and less 'I am so smart", I think it would help a ton reduce the conflicts you have with several other posters here.

You have expressed your opinion clearly on power boats - you don't think power boats are the right choice for crossing oceans for you. And Dashew would say that is fine. He would respect your choice. He would hope you would respect his. He wanted to do higher latitudes and extended cruising when he and Linda were older and he decided (and I might note that he is a smart and thoughtful and insightful guy) that an efficient power boat was the best choice for them.

That point about respecting choices is key here. You know the Dashews to be thoughtful and intelligent and no argument here on that. But what you're hearing is that at least some people who measure footprints do not respect a choice that has such a big footprint. We wouldn't respect other decisions that cause real harm, so why this one? Just because climate change is harder to imagine? Only very selective and bad maths would say that the Dashews had a light footprint, and only basic logical fallacies are employed in this thread to justify it (bigger boats are worse, oyster 80s aren't great either, etc).

If the answer to why it's ok to emit so much is that there was no other way for a senior citizen to go to the ice, then I'm afraid the answer is that they don't get to go. This is the world we live in now. It's a very frightening and confronting one, but if we don't recognise it then the status quo continues. These boats are status symbols. People buy them in part because they get fawned over on sites like this. They need to hear that there's a moral and environmental cost to them that means that rather than being admired and envied, they are being judged. It's not personal to these particular designers at all, and those who keep getting upset are understandably choosing that reaction over engaging with the real issue.

In short, many, many people would say without being personal about it at all that they cannot respect those decisions and judge them to be wrong. Their reasons are principled, scientific, and supported by literally the biggest and most extraordinary scientific analysis in human history.

I live in the first world. My elderly father refuses to fly and will never get to see an iceberg. He would love to, but has shrunk his footprint because he has bothered to think about it. It's offensive to efforts like that to see such spoiled first world thinking as seeks to justify massive burns for optional leisure.

Cue of course more claims of disgust that making this point involves lovely people, or that there are worse emitters. It's not an attack on these people, it's challenging the idea that this kind of travel is legitimate. It's not, and those who think the big issue here is one of manners have spent too much time looking at a forum about boats, and not enough thinking about how serious this is.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Colin A

On that post as I recall the 78 foot model burned 33 liter an hour combined on both engines at 10 knots. For reference on coastal boats the last 75' sport fish I was on burned close to a 1000 liter an hour at cruise (30 knots) and ran between FL and New England yearly As well as 20-30 tournaments a year.

The engine manufacturer gives about 30 liters hour for each of the engines at cruising speed. That gives 60 L/hour.

I know several professional skippers of big yachts with 60ft and over, none of them wastes nothing compared to that. Normal consumption at cruising speed is much less than that, for instance:

Sunseeker 70
1550 HP MAN engines
1500 RPM = 18.3 knots and 51gph = 399 miles range (best mpg)

That gives 193 L/hour at almost the double of speed.

but that is an unfair comparison because bin what regards interior space the Sunseker 700 is 2 or more times bigger than the FPB 73.

But that is not the point. These type of boats or sport Fisher's are used in short coastal trips and don't do many hours on the engines and have a relatively small autonomy. For instance the Sunsekeer 70 has a range of only 383nm.

These yachts are designed to go from the marina to a nice anchorage and back of from one nice marina to another and that is the way owners use them.

The FPB are boats designed for long range cruising and to circumnavigate, not to go from marina to marina or from the marina to a nice anchorage.

On an average circumnavigation, that on a FPB 78, due to the superior effective speed (regarding a sailing boat), can be made on one year or if slowly on one year and a half, that boat will burn 180 000 liters of diesel.

A typical an 8 year old Sunseeker with 72/70ft have about 800/1000 hours on the engine, some with less than 400 hours. If we consider 900 hours has average we will have a fuel consumption for 8 years of use of about 173 700.

Note that while the Sunseeker 70 is a luxury boat the FPB is a long range cruising boat.

I don't like luxury motorboats and I think that the pollution they make as well as the fuel they burn is socially unacceptable in what regards a huge ecological footprint made by very few, a hugely disproportionate pollution.

But the FPB, due to the different characteristics of use it is designed to perform (long range cruising) ends up to make a footprint as big or bigger than a luxury motorboat (for year) and that while cruising.

I cannot endorse or support someone that sees as the best boat for long range cruising a boat that leaves such a footprint.

Cruising should be as ecological as possible and if it is defensible coastal cruising on a motorboat with a moderate consumption, long range cruising is not, even on one with a moderate consumption that due to the big distances to cover ends up to have a huge overall consumption.

[Pelagic]

I always wonder if a crusading environmentalist would still prefer a small, sail only boat, when experiencing these types of conditions.

Sometimes Size AND Power are priceless

https://youtu.be/9k-g2VmyFCo

[Polux]

Originally Posted by dannc

Unfortunately, this thread is yet another example of the nastiness on CF. A discussion about two people who have greatly benefited the cruising community and who seem to be very nice, thoughtful, and caring, are dragged into the mud by people with their own agenda, ignorance, arrogance and bigotry.
....

When Steve fell and got hurt recently, it made me wonder if that would push them into retirement. When they announced their retirement, it was not much of a surprise, after all they are not getting any younger. .

Publishing their books as PDFs and making them available for free to the cruising community was a class act. I managed to buy the physical books, because I wanted copies of them, before they were sold out. Some of the information in the books is dated, basically technology stuff, but much of it is timeless.

Later,
Dan

You are mistake. You should have read the link on the first post. This thread is not about the Dashews retiring from cruising. They said specifically that they will continue cruising.

IT IS ABOUT THE DASHEWS STOPPING PROMOTING AND BUILDING LONG RANGE HUGE CRUISING MOTORBOATS.

It is about stopping a business, not about their personal life.