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Old 09-05-2024, 13:57   #16
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Re: Steel hull?

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Originally Posted by dlj View Post
While the rest of your post i have no concerns about but the above line is simply absurd hyperbole and grossly inaccurate.

There have been actual tests done on fiberglass hull boats showing how much more robust they actually are.

dj

That must be why everyone chooses fiberglass boats to go to Antarctica!
This is irony.
For those who laugh, a dangerous joke that deceives people.
Newbies, PLEASE don't buy plastic boats to go to Antarctica, you'll kill yourself, your family, your dog, your friends and whoever's inside!
Of course, if the goal is suicide, good luck.
The irony is that those who argue that fiber boats are more resistant never go to Antarctica and, when they do (very rarely), they go in a quick summer window and come back running because they know that they can die.
In short, newbies, because anyone who's been sailing knows what a joke it is to say that a fiberglass sailboat is stronger than metal, steel or aluminum boats, be very careful, don't make the suicidal mistake of buying a fiberglass sailboat to collide with hundreds or thousands of ice floes in Antarctica.
I'd like to see one of those who say this sign a legal document taking responsibility for what they say and the consequences of their words.
We are sailors, beings of the sea, salt water runs through our veins and our solidarity is as strong as metal! We have to save lives, divert from paradisiacal islands to save people at risk at sea, and we do that. But certain words kill, and they can't go uncriticized.
There are people who are going to buy their first boat and could run a serious risk because of false information that is very different from different opinions.
Fiber, aluminum, iron cement, steel... Each has its advantage, just don't say that commercial fiber sailboats are stronger than steel or aluminum sailboats, steel being the strongest, even if you prefer aluminum. Such nonsense can cause a major accident, even death, for a novice who believes it, buys a plastic sailboat and goes to winter in Antarctica.
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Old 09-05-2024, 14:21   #17
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Re: Steel hull?

I wonder why they don't build ships with fiberglass.

About 30 years ago some tried mid size fishing boats of fiberglass. They didn't stand the wear and tear of fishing gear.

A properly designed sailboat of steel sails about the same as FG. Most steel boats I see are home built. And many home builders tend to use thicker steel than spec'ed.


I ran fiberglass PBRs in Vietnam. They were a PIA to repair battle damage. Many damaged boats were just scrapped.
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Old 09-05-2024, 14:48   #18
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Re: Steel hull?

Wow, I sure got you riled up... Not my intention, but hey, there we are. I will say that I do take these things to heart and do like to be clear, as you say, for the “Newbies”...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briis View Post
... unlike plastic boats that just immediately sink with head-sized holes or broken-off-keels in even magnitudes lower impact hits in comparison.
To be clear, the above hyperbole is what I object to. If you go back to the post you wrote and I responded to – I stated I agreed with what you said – except for the above. But I actually thank you for this recent post, because it gave me reason to go back and review what I wrote. I realize my last sentence could be misconstrued, as apparently you have done.

I wrote “There have been actual tests done on fiberglass hull boats showing how much more robust they actually are.”

Dang, what I was in my head was “There have been actual tests done on fiberglass hull boats showing how much more robust they actually are than you description implies.”

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Originally Posted by Del Mare View Post
That must be why everyone chooses fiberglass boats to go to Antarctica!
This is irony.
For those who laugh, a dangerous joke that deceives people.
Newbies, PLEASE don't buy plastic boats to go to Antarctica, you'll kill yourself, your family, your dog, your friends and whoever's inside!
Of course, if the goal is suicide, good luck.
The irony is that those who argue that fiber boats are more resistant never go to Antarctica and, when they do (very rarely), they go in a quick summer window and come back running because they know that they can die.
I see now. Your technique is to talk in extreme hyperbole. The above is complete hyperbole. Wow!

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Originally Posted by Del Mare View Post
In short, newbies, because anyone who's been sailing knows what a joke it is to say that a fiberglass sailboat is stronger than metal, steel or aluminum boats, be very careful, don't make the suicidal mistake of buying a fiberglass sailboat to collide with hundreds or thousands of ice floes in Antarctica.
Stronger is a pretty undefined term. But in any case, without going into that aspect – for clarity on my side, I agree for high latitude sailing, steel or aluminum hulled boats are preferred. Many people do sail there in fiberglass boats. But in any case, a newbie should not be sailing into the high latitudes... as a newbie.... on any sailboat.

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I'd like to see one of those who say this sign a legal document taking responsibility for what they say and the consequences of their words.
You definitely should apply that to yourself.

dj
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Old 09-05-2024, 15:29   #19
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Re: Steel hull?

Steel may be stronger, but I have seen so many steel boats after being sandblasted and they look like cheese graters. It's only the rust and a lifetime of antifoul paint keeping them afloat.
That to me is the big difference between steel and fiberglass. A fibreglass hull can be neglected and easily brought back to life, but steel is another issue. We had a neglected steel yacht in our marina and the marina refused to let it be cleaned below the waterline. Sure enough when it came out and the oysters and growth removed there was a number of holes.
27 foot is the smallest fiberglass yacht I have heard going to Antarctica. This Outremer in the photo below had no trouble visiting Antarctica.
Lepke a lot of Taiwanese squid boats 100 foot or more were fiberglass. Russia has fiberglass 200 foot mine sweepers.
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Old 09-05-2024, 17:40   #20
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Re: Steel hull?

Quote:
A good practice for any steel boat is to temporarily strip, sandblast and re-paint inside with high-quality 2-part epoxy every 25-30 years,
I suppose that this, in theory, is indeed "good practice". However, as a PRACTICAL practice it is beyond the threshold of reason! Strip the interior fitout and sandblast?? Sure, just what every yacht owner wants to do...NOT! A herculean task that would cost more than a new build... well, maybe not quite, but in the same magnitude. Even if only once in 25 years, this concept should discourage anyone from steel construction unless short term ownership is the goal.

The strength and abrasion resistance of steel is obvious. The common rust streaked appearance that we all see around us shows that for many owners the maintenance required by steel is too damn hard. Unless actually headed for extreme environs (and damn few yotties do such voyages), the choice of steel is questionable IMO.

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Old 09-05-2024, 17:58   #21
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Re: Steel hull?

Jim,

I would only suggest that the steel bleeding at least points to maintenance issues whereas on plastic they remain hidden. This is not universally true, steel issues can remain hidden, but less so than plastic.

And also there are steel boats that pass as aluminum or plastic because there is no rust stain. I have often had our hull mistaken for aluminum simply for that reason, no visible rust.
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Old 09-05-2024, 18:13   #22
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Re: Steel hull?

Let's not pretend that fiberglass boats don't have their own "issues"


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Old 09-05-2024, 18:28   #23
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Re: Steel hull?

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Let's not pretend that fiberglass boats don't have their own "issues"
Ya know, I found the perfect material, not just for boats, but everything else in the world - it's made from the element Unobtainum.

dj
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Old 09-05-2024, 19:42   #24
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Re: Steel hull?

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Ya know, I found the perfect material, not just for boats, but everything else in the world - it's made from the element Unobtainum.
dj
Perhaps there are no materials with zero issues, but some come pretty close.
Two come to mind, 70-30 CuNi, and Titanium.

https://www.copper.org/applications/...boat_hull.html

https://www.proboat.com/2011/07/an-all-titanium-yacht/
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Old 09-05-2024, 20:08   #25
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Re: Steel hull?

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Perhaps there are no materials with zero issues, but some come pretty close.
Two come to mind, 70-30 CuNi, and Titanium.

https://www.copper.org/applications/...boat_hull.html

https://www.proboat.com/2011/07/an-all-titanium-yacht/
There are compromises and limitations in all material choices.

Given the two alloys you list, I'm guessing the primary (or perhaps only) selection criteria you are looking at is corrosion resistance - a narrow view for any material selection.

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Old 09-05-2024, 21:02   #26
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Re: Steel hull?

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There are compromises and limitations in all material choices.
Given the two alloys you list, I'm guessing the primary (or perhaps only) selection criteria you are looking at is corrosion resistance - a narrow view for any material selection.
dj
Your statement of "or perhaps only" is way off base, and my view is not narrow at all.
Several reasons other than just corrosion resistance.
Both those materials are far beyond what aluminum or steel can offer, of course they are also far beyond in cost.
Don't know a lot about Titanium, but CuNi hulls were being built several decades ago, (primarily as Gulf Coast shrimp boats,) and quickly attained a reputation as tough/easy to maintain, and didn't require multiple thousands of dollars spent in regular haulouts and bottom paint.
And built-in CuNi water tanks keep water fresh and clean.
And you can drill it/work it with hand tools, weld it with torch or electric welding, and bolt down bronze parts wherever you want, heck, you can even solder it like copper wire.
Compared to steel or aluminum, CuNi is a wonder metal for salt water.
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Old 10-05-2024, 00:18   #27
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Re: Steel hull?

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Originally Posted by massnspace View Post
Looking for my next boat. Fiberglass hull, of course, as that is all I have ever owned, know how to repair, etc.

Found a near-new, mint condition steel-hulled beauty. WOW! Mint condition. Launched in 2018. 50 hours on the diesel.

But I know nothing of this material….would this be a good way to go?

Trip will be pretty extensive….down the west coast of USA, Sea of Cortez, Panama Canal, then up to Cancun and eventually up US east coast.

Thanks for any input….

David
Seattle
Hi Dave,

I bought my first boat a few years ago a 40ft steel boat built in 1995. The boat has been well maintained over the years and it is easy to keep on top of the maintenance. If I start to see any rust I sand back the paint to bare metal buff it up and use some rust killa if needed then just paint it back up using epoxy primer and paint. The maintenance is easy to keep on top of.

As others have said It can be difficult to inspect the inside of the hull, I just use a handheld borescope to see in the hard to get to places. As the boat was well painted when built I haven't had any issues with rust on the inside of the boat yet.
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Old 10-05-2024, 01:21   #28
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Re: Steel hull?

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I suppose that this, in theory, is indeed "good practice". However, as a PRACTICAL practice it is beyond the threshold of reason! Strip the interior fitout and sandblast?? Sure, just what every yacht owner wants to do...NOT! A herculean task that would cost more than a new build... well, maybe not quite, but in the same magnitude. Even if only once in 25 years, this concept should discourage anyone from steel construction unless short term ownership is the goal.

The strength and abrasion resistance of steel is obvious. The common rust streaked appearance that we all see around us shows that for many owners the maintenance required by steel is too damn hard. Unless actually headed for extreme environs (and damn few yotties do such voyages), the choice of steel is questionable IMO.
"Good practice" is for those who seek the ultimate peace in mind. Since steel boats almost always rust inside-out, yet outside you can inspect yearly no problem. If you have a simple ultrasound transducer and are willing to go measure the hull in detail every year or two, then by no means you need to sandblast inside the steel boat every 25-30 years or so. Just find the few spots you've found by reduced measurement (= potential rust) and deal with them separately. Actually the latter method is what I use on my 30 y/o steel boat. I am just contemplating if I'll do mine within 2-5 year span for that perdectionist owner's peace-of-mind I'd like personally - if it lasted 30 years already, when re-done, it'll be as good condition as if I transfer the boat over to my grandkids when I retire.

And a well designed steel boats are unlike plastic boats, where you have to destoy large amounts of stuff to get internals out since many of it are glued and awkwardly fixed due to plastic moldings. A well designed steel boat's internals are utterly easily removable in comparison since they're just simple ingenious pin or bolt supported via simple holes on the metal ribs - dead easy to remove and to put back accordingly. Mostly all you need to do later is minor paint/furnish repairs if you chipped some corners on furniture or on wooden plating for renewed "good looks" (and also good timing to refresh a 25-30 y/o faded/tired furniture!). Hence on a well designed steel boat it's very easy to strip large parts if not all internals for sandblasting and repainting when needed. As said, only for peace in mind and very easy to do considering you need it 2-3 times per century (max one or two times in your whole lifetime FFS!) and it will outlast any plastic boat interms of longetivity and preserved strenght. I say it's a very small pre-emptive maintenance scheme time-wise for those who look for the ultimate peace of mind on an ultimate go-anywhere steel boat.

Yes, steel boats cannot be as neglected as plastic boats, but it's never too hard to maintain steel. The trick is explained in my first post (don't cut corners on paint and though-through electrolysis/galvanic balance of the hull).
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Old 10-05-2024, 01:44   #29
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Re: Steel hull?

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Let's not pretend that fiberglass boats don't have their own "issues"


mostly boat after 1997-2000 use vinilester no osmosis and also epoxy primer underwater before antifouling paint
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Old 11-05-2024, 22:36   #30
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Re: Steel hull?

Eu escrevi: “Foram realizados testes reais em barcos com casco de fibra de vidro, mostrando como eles realmente são mais robustos”.

Droga, o que eu estava pensando era: “Houve testes reais feitos em barcos com casco de fibra de vidro, mostrando o quanto eles realmente são mais robustos do que a descrição sugere”.



Mais forte é um termo bastante indefinido. Mas, em qualquer caso, sem entrar nesse aspecto – para maior clareza da minha parte, concordo que para a navegação em altas latitudes, os barcos com casco de aço ou alumínio são os preferidos. Muitas pessoas navegam até lá em barcos de fibra de vidro. Mas em qualquer caso, um novato não deveria navegar para altas latitudes... como um novato... em qualquer veleiro.


Você definitivamente deveria aplicar isso a si mesmo.

DJ[/QUOTE]




Good morning DJ!
First of all, I'd like to make the most important thing clear: regardless of opinions, I consider you all to be my family, the one I chose.
I speak with affection because, first and foremost, we are the ones who are always on the waves of the seas, who are a big family that, when things get difficult between the waves, one of us between the waves will appear to stretch out our hands, our cables and our lives!

As for signing a document confirming that metal sailboats are more resistant and prudent for high latitudes, I'd sign it on the spot.

Each material has its advantages. For those who live in sheltered waters, I have no doubt that the investment in a Blue Water can be exaggerated. A fiber one might be the best value for money.

I now understand your quote, only that fiberglass is stronger than we suggest.
Sailboats from the 1980s, with their one-piece keels and thick hulls, really are stronger. I've seen several of them end up on the beach and they held up well. But today, I've seen boats fall apart like wet paper on the beach. Shipyards should be honest and make it clear about the limits of these boats.
Or let's make a joke: there's 100 million dollars in Chile and we leave New Zealand and cross the Pacific. To get the prize we have to hit two containers on the way at 10 knots, without any communication or salvage equipment. How brave would I be to try to get the prize?
Sailboat made of
a) steel
b) aluminum
c) fiberglass
These are the ones I want for myself.
My answer: a and b, steel and aluminum

What about you?
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