So walk me through the in-mast furling mainsail

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David B

Thanks for that. EUR8000 is expensive for a motor etc, but certainly worth considering for the future.
As for the powered winch, ours came the the port secondary winch powered, and without that, furling the main and genoa would be much more work - I use it exclusively - especially when single-handing.

Furling the genoa is just a matter of using the primary winch as a turning block and leading the furling line to the powered secondary, while keeping some tension on the sheet running through the primary winch - easy, but a motor at the base of the foil would be nice .....

For the main out, I just put the outhaul on the powered winch, and run one side of the loop through my gloved hand for tension, stopping every meter or so to bring in the slack on the other side of the loop.
For furling the main, the loop is on the powered winch, and both the outhaul and the other end of the loop, run through my gloved hand to maintain tension.

I do this regularly - having available crew makes it easier, but also, with just one, there is total control. A foot switch for the powered winch would be the ultimate for this configuration, freeing that other hand to pull in the slack on a continuous basis.

Basically the same as what I do; maybe it's harder single handed on a larger system. When furling in, you really need three hands -- one to press the electric winch button, one to tail the furling line, and a third hand to keep tension on the outhaul. On my system, the furling line definitely needs tailing so that it doesn't slip on the furling drum and wear it out -- it's a big job to replace it. So what I often do single handed is let out SOME outhaul, put on the clutch, furl, stop, let out more outhaul. Tedious, and the tension is not constant. I would definitely like to have the electric furler so that I can do that with one hand while I regulate tension on the outhaul.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Basically the same as what I do; maybe it's harder single handed on a larger system. When furling in, you really need three hands -- one to press the electric winch button, one to tail the furling line, and a third hand to keep tension on the outhaul. On my system, the furling line definitely needs tailing so that it doesn't slip on the furling drum and wear it out -- it's a big job to replace it. So what I often do single handed is let out SOME outhaul, put on the clutch, furl, stop, let out more outhaul. Tedious, and the tension is not constant. I would definitely like to have the electric furler so that I can do that with one hand while I regulate tension on the outhaul.

Yes, tailing the loop off the furling drum at the mast is the only thing - as before, I just stop every now and again to gather the slack rather than full-time tailing, as it doesn't slip on ours.

What you can do, is the hand that is letting the line run through to maintain tension, can be used to operate the electric winch also - doable, but not ideal. So as a cheaper solution for you, think about a foot (or knee) switch (perhaps just the slow-speed one is enough, although I do use both) for the powered winch. Then you have both hands free. Easy enough to wire up across the existing switch - just a matter of access behind, and effective placement.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David B

Yes, tailing the loop off the furling drum at the mast is the only thing - as before, I just stop every now and again to gather the slack rather than full-time tailing, as it doesn't slip on ours.

What you can do, is the hand that is letting the line run through to maintain tension, can be used to operate the electric winch also - doable, but not ideal. So as a cheaper solution for you, think about a foot (or knee) switch (perhaps just the slow-speed one is enough, although I do use both) for the powered winch. Then you have both hands free. Easy enough to wire up across the existing switch - just a matter of access behind, and effective placement.

A foot (or knee) switch for eletric winches is dangerous. Step on it accidentally with the wrong line on the self-tailer and you can pull the mast down.

Of course we all faff through it somehow -- I've been doing it for 12 years and around 50,000 miles just with this boat. My laminate mainsail is so flexible that it really isn't much sensitive to outhaul tension when rolling in -- as long as the boom is more or less horizontal, it rolls up just right. So my preferred faff is to let a meter of outhaul out at a time, close the clutch, furl, stop, let out another meter, etc. If there is not another person nearby to handle the outhaul. Unlike you, I can't let the lazy end of the furling line go -- it will slip at least a little, and only takes a little slippage to quickly wear the plastic teeth out of the furling drum, so I strictly avoid that.

If I ever have in-mast furling on a new boat -- and the jury is still out whether I will choose this or slab reefing -- I will make it electric. That then will be a doddle to furl while handling the outhaul with just the right amount of tension and without stopping all the time to let out more outhaul.


On another note, but back to the original topic of this thread -- I presently have on board an old sailing friend who has owned some amazing boats I've spent time on including a Swan 90, and who has a good bit of ocean racing experience. We've sailed literally from one end of the Baltic to the other, and have done about 1500 miles together on my boat just in the last few weeks. He's been on my boat many times before but only this time I have been letting him use the in-mast furling himself. In the course of this cruise he has been totally converted (without any encouragement from me) to in-mast furling and is now specifically looking for this system for his next boat. He's looking for a nice cruiser in the 60 to 70 foot range, and says now he wouldn't look at a boat without in-mast furling.

[goboatingnow]

All I can say is I have single line slab reefing and I really want in-mast.

[Na Mara]

All I can say is that with my electric in-mast my 14 year old son can reef or unfurl the sail single handed on my 43fter. He just sits there with one hand on outhaul winch and the other on the buttons. It’s literally child’s play.

[Greatest Lakes]

Originally Posted by Searles

In boom furling is a much better and more easily managed in every respect than in mast furling of any type ,plus the noise of the wind in the slot when the sail is furled in the mast will drive you off the boat ,your neighbours are an other matter .⚓️⛵️

This. The convenience is good, but they have a howl at some wimd angles that make it sound like you are in a storm. I dont think failures are too common, but my brother had a Hunter 49 and the mainsail furling gave up on that on the way into San Francisco. They had an awful time getting it down.

[MicHughV]

to me...the issue is....
all the extra weight in the mast....
mast section is thicker.....
there is an in-mast roller system....
the entire mainsail is inside there..

I don't know what all this extra weight amounts to, but I'd guess several 100 pounds.....this can't be a good thing....convenient, yes, when it works.....but practical, no, not in my mind..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

to me...the issue is....
all the extra weight in the mast....
mast section is thicker.....
there is an in-mast roller system....
the entire mainsail is inside there..

I don't know what all this extra weight amounts to, but I'd guess several 100 pounds.....this can't be a good thing....convenient, yes, when it works.....but practical, no, not in my mind..

Oh, there are more disadvantages than just that.

For me, the biggest disadvantage is the lack of roach in the mainsail, which is a significant performance hit.

Also, rigid heavy master section means you can't bend the mast (much), so you lose a control.

But neither is "convenience" the only advantage. There are a bunch of advantages.

Everyone will have to weigh all of these and make his own decision.

[MicHughV]

yes, Dockhead, you are quite correct...

To add to all the above...

I went sailing one time with an in-mast main furler...it was on a Beneteau....a 343 I think...

From the gitgo it was a pain in the rear end.

It was a misery getting it out, compounded by the fact it was quite windy that day with a good 3-5' sea running.....it never set well..it was quite baggy, being only supported by the clew...it was quite small....no roach...it was not possible to tighten the leech or luff...off course, mast bending was out of the questions..etc...etc...the sail furling system is questionable in my opinion, it's inside the mast and difficult to get to or wash the salt spray out...the roller reefing line has to go around a rather small diameter...the line will stay wet for a long time....it takes complicated maneuvering to get to the " optimum" heading to roll it in or out, it really requires a crew of at least two to deal with it....

while getting it out was a misery, getting it back in was doubly so....

no thank you, not for me.

Ironically, I'm boat shopping at the moment for my next boat, but will walk away from any boat that has in-mast furling, regardless of price or other features.....I see it as a "convenience" for your lake sailor, but it has no place on an offshore boat.....just my opinion off course, but I'll stick with it. If you have a problem with this sail in high wind and can't roll it back in, you will have a big problem offshore.

Lastly, the sail material, in order to be able to be rolled inside the mast means it is quite thin and lightweight...again.....not suitable for offshore..

but...as you say....each to his own...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

yes, Dockhead, you are quite correct...

To add to all the above...

I went sailing one time with an in-mast main furler...it was on a Beneteau....a 343 I think...

From the gitgo it was a pain in the rear end.

It was a misery getting it out, compounded by the fact it was quite windy that day with a good 3-5' sea running.....it never set well..it was quite baggy, being only supported by the clew...it was quite small....no roach...it was not possible to tighten the leech or luff...off course, mast bending was out of the questions..etc...etc...the sail furling system is questionable in my opinion, it's inside the mast and difficult to get to or wash the salt spray out...the roller reefing line has to go around a rather small diameter...the line will stay wet for a long time....it takes complicated maneuvering to get to the " optimum" heading to roll it in or out, it really requires a crew of at least two to deal with it....

while getting it out was a misery, getting it back in was doubly so....

no thank you, not for me.

Ironically, I'm boat shopping at the moment for my next boat, but will walk away from any boat that has in-mast furling, regardless of price or other features.....I see it as a "convenience" for your lake sailor, but it has no place on an offshore boat.....just my opinion off course, but I'll stick with it. If you have a problem with this sail in high wind and can't roll it back in, you will have a big problem offshore.

Lastly, the sail material, in order to be able to be rolled inside the mast means it is quite thin and lightweight...again.....not suitable for offshore..

but...as you say....each to his own...

Well, but that's like sailing a clapped out charter boat with blown out full batten sail, not being able to trim it, experiencing sticky unmaintained cars, and concluding that all full batten mains are crap.

Like any system, in mast furling requires maintenance and adjustment, and in mast furling is particularly intolerant of blown out sails. A well maintained system with laminate sail is an entirely different experience from what you describe.

As to offshore vs inshore, it's the other way around. For coastal sailing in mild latitudes, you don't really need in mast furling, and the lack of roach hurts. I would certainly go full batten for that. But in gnarly offshore conditions, especially in windier higher latitudes, in mast furling shines. And you don't miss the roach so much. On top of all the other advantages of in mast furling for that use case, in mast furling mains are cut flatter, and work really well when reefed.

You're entitled to dislike in mast furling - to each his own - but you should do it based on a lot better data than the experience you described.

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

yes, Dockhead, you are quite correct...

To add to all the above...

I went sailing one time with an in-mast main furler...it was on a Beneteau....a 343 I think...

From the gitgo it was a pain in the rear end.

It was a misery getting it out, compounded by the fact it was quite windy that day with a good 3-5' sea running.....it never set well..it was quite baggy, being only supported by the clew...it was quite small....no roach...it was not possible to tighten the leech or luff...off course, mast bending was out of the questions..etc...etc...the sail furling system is questionable in my opinion, it's inside the mast and difficult to get to or wash the salt spray out...the roller reefing line has to go around a rather small diameter...the line will stay wet for a long time....it takes complicated maneuvering to get to the " optimum" heading to roll it in or out, it really requires a crew of at least two to deal with it....

while getting it out was a misery, getting it back in was doubly so....

no thank you, not for me.

Ironically, I'm boat shopping at the moment for my next boat, but will walk away from any boat that has in-mast furling, regardless of price or other features.....I see it as a "convenience" for your lake sailor, but it has no place on an offshore boat.....just my opinion off course, but I'll stick with it. If you have a problem with this sail in high wind and can't roll it back in, you will have a big problem offshore.

Lastly, the sail material, in order to be able to be rolled inside the mast means it is quite thin and lightweight...again.....not suitable for offshore..

but...as you say....each to his own...

Gee, I wish I had known all this wisdom (from one experience of in-mast apparently) before the admiral and I sailed around the world with an in-mast with no issues at all. We had waves a lot higher than 3 to 5' much of the time - try Mauritius to Richards Bay. When we got a new mainsail made in the Caribbean (Doyle) it was 9.7 ounce as I remember which apparently counts as thin and lightweight. The Internet is wonderful, so much to learn.

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Gee, I wish I had known all this wisdom (from one experience of in-mast apparently) before the admiral and I sailed around the world with an in-mast with no issues at all. We had waves a lot higher than 3 to 5' much of the time - try Mauritius to Richards Bay. When we got a new mainsail made in the Caribbean (Doyle) it was 9.7 ounce as I remember which apparently counts as thin and lightweight. The Internet is wonderful, so much to learn.

No kidding. We were silly enough to do two trouble free seasons sailing around the Caribbean (+/-5000nm) with a Selden in-mast paired with an Elvstrom vertically battened, positive roach main on our 44' Catamaran. Now that I read about it I'm getting a little PTSD.

[MicHughV]

well, as previously stated....it's each to his (her) own....

[David B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A foot (or knee) switch for eletric winches is dangerous. Step on it accidentally with the wrong line on the self-tailer and you can pull the mast down..

If it was exposed, yes. But the ones I see and use have a cover over them - typically used at the windlass, but also on many powered winches. You can stand on them, and nothing happens. You can poke your finger through the hole to operate - or, you can flip the cover back to then use with your foot.

Another thing with any powered winch/windlass, is to have provision for very rapid disabling. They all use a relay to handle the very heavy current draw. If the contacts weld or the relay sticks for some other reason, it is a big plus for one to be able to shut-down the feed to the winch as quickly as possible.

I would never use a winch in powered mode for the last tweaks on anything, but that last little bit of tensioning only amounts to a second of so of electric operation, so no time to rush below decks to the isolators.

Worst case I can think of is up the mast - you are almost to the top, and the winch locks on ......

[botanybay]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Vertical battons that are short are OK. A bagged out Dacron main (2years) will begin to overwrap on itself and hang up. We just replaced with a North 3DI. Best sail I’ve ever had. In all cases, the sail must be FLAT with no bill in draft. The 3DI will stay flat for many years. Our in mast main is Hood Stowaway electric. The mizzen is manual.

Sounds like a very similar system to my 1990 Oyster 55, definitely considering a North 3DI. Are you still happy with it?

Currently have non-overlapping vertical battens and while the sail is old (might actually be original) I can furl/unfurl it without significant issues. Definitely looking forward to an upgrade thought.

I see that in 2020 they created an intermediate cruising version (I think it is called a 370) vs. the high end version.

Did you also replace your headsails?