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Old 07-04-2017, 11:47   #76
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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Thanks for that post, Don. As a new sailor I'm watching this wondering how I would react in that situation. Initially it could seem that since the jib is moving you towards the pier more quickly it is counterintuitive to raise the main. I can't imagine the stress of the situation and trying to figure out how to save yourself and the boat.

I didn't know about the other issues until I read them just now, but I cringed when I saw those guys thrown from the boat.
The time to act was 20-30 minutes prior. By the time the video starts, it was all over but the swimming.
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Old 07-04-2017, 15:28   #77
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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Thanks for that post, Don. As a new sailor I'm watching this wondering how I would react in that situation. Initially it could seem that since the jib is moving you towards the pier more quickly it is counterintuitive to raise the main.
If they could have raised the main, there wouldn't have been a problem.

They would have just sailed in with the rest of the fleet.
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:25   #78
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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If they could have raised the main, there wouldn't have been a problem.

They would have just sailed in with the rest of the fleet.
You need to power the boat, understood.

My point was for seasoned sailors that's the natural thing to do. Where they are the panic starts to set in so with your brain scrambled, the seasoned sailor thinks raise the main. Newer sailors think ****, I'm going into the pier. Without the experience it's easier to miss the right strategy.
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Old 08-04-2017, 13:57   #79
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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You need to power the boat, understood.

My point was for seasoned sailors that's the natural thing to do. Where they are the panic starts to set in so with your brain scrambled, the seasoned sailor thinks raise the main. Newer sailors think ****, I'm going into the pier. Without the experience it's easier to miss the right strategy.
To my way of seeing it, given how close he was sailing to the pier and making poor progress, his fate was sealed as soon as he passed the outside corner of the pier. After that, no amount of anchor throwing or mainsail raising was going to help, both would have needed more time and room than he had. So in this case the newer sailors would have been right! Not sure about the seasoned sailors, but surfers probably would have said that after that first swell of the larger set hit them, warning them, they should have all been ready to jump off the boat (to windward or off bow or stern, of course!) It is a miracle no one was caught between the boat and pilings. And I forget who mentioned it, but yes, wearing a harness at this point would have been a very bad idea!
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Old 08-04-2017, 14:02   #80
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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I don't know. Having both and engine out and no anchor available is just too hypothetical for me. Is there any single 50 footer sailing out there, with no anchor? Certainly not my boat. I just wouldn't do it -- it's basic gear and basic seamanship. The anchor is not just a parking device -- it is one of the three fundamental means we have to control the boat.
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In my part of the world its a statutory requirement.
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Old 08-04-2017, 21:44   #81
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

It's amazing nobody was hurt. They all looked like ragdolls. In one second it looked like one crew was going to get nailed by the boat.
I wasn't onboard so I can't judge if they made reckless choices that got them there or not.
Sometimes in life $hit just happens. Glad they are all safe.
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Old 08-04-2017, 22:16   #82
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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A martin 242 is an extremely nippy little 24' race boat with a very big rudder. It has basically 0 side deck space - I can't imagine trying to untangle the jib in conditions like that while trying to hang on

There is no way a raceboat would be carrying an anchor on the bow either - more stuff to get your spinny tangled up in
Exactly right...my best friend was partners with Don Martin and used to build them in Vancouver.

To me the key issue is again the Racer's mentality to sail out of trouble instead of giving themselves more time to recover and be safe.

I can understand in racing, no anchor on bow ready for deployment, but I cannot understand why one is not stored elsewhere, ready for fast deployment
Or if they do not carry one to save weight... that simply illustrates their lack of seamanship
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:19   #83
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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You need to power the boat, understood.

My point was for seasoned sailors that's the natural thing to do. Where they are the panic starts to set in so with your brain scrambled, the seasoned sailor thinks raise the main. Newer sailors think ****, I'm going into the pier. Without the experience it's easier to miss the right strategy.
I mentioned earlier that it appeared the crew was out of sorts from whatever caused the damage to the boat and mainsail

My point was that if the main was up (along with the jib) even if it was partially damaged it probably still would have been enough to keep them from getting so close to shore in the first place

Not sure what the damage was or the experience of the crew.
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:26   #84
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

The main wasn't up?
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:29   #85
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

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The main wasn't up?
No, if it was they wouldn't have been in that situation..............because they would have been able to sail more to windward

They'll be prepared next time though.

It's just good no one was hurt ...........
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:33   #86
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

Oh dear, you are right. I just saw the vid again. Hell yeah, we only sail with just the jib downwind or on a reach. As soon as they started to be overpowered pushed to shore the main should have gone up!
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:41   #87
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

Have any statements from the crew been made public? Maybe the main halyard jammed? No engine?
Imho, from racing dinghies to big boats, I would not go out sailing in heavy wx or racing on keelboat w/o a working engine. Sailing dinghy, of course, no biggie, as long as it furls (and I gotta kayak paddle for emergency rudder/propulsion).
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Old 09-04-2017, 13:15   #88
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

Another reason they may have given up on the main though is that it was not rigged to reef, and they had found earlier that they were way overpowered with the main up with that much wind. Kinda rare to see race boats like that ready to reef. That boat is so light, the jib could have probably gotten them in ok, if it hadn't been snagged. I was impressed how they did get some drive off it for a short stretch in the condition it was in.
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Old 09-04-2017, 15:07   #89
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

I know there are racing rules that require anchors, and I also have met a skipper that almost lost his boat because the electric motor was inadequate to the circumstances, and he had no anchor. He actually came close to losing his life in that kerfuffle. Sapient Sue - here on this forum - was part of the rescue effort.

So, regardless of laws, I don't think small clubs enforce the rules equally. And I think that's just part of life. I remember Jim always used to have an anchor on the foredeck when racing the Yankee 30. You don't have to have a race boat to race your boat. The anchor in question was our Danforth HT #20. It never snagged the spinnaker.

Finally, i wonder if Pelagic really didn't hit on something important, that if you've sailed boats without motors, your responses, your thinking, is all around trying to get it sailing in a safe direction.

Zeehag mentioned the current, and they were in such a bad spot. I think the effort with the jib was in the hope of being able to get it to help them get out of there, but it was too late. The struggle with it was intense, and they ran out of time, and yes, I was surprised they stuck with the boat so long, when its demise was obviously going to happen, I'd have dived off. I was once mixed up with an undertow and a pier, and piers can be very uncomfortable for swimmers. The water at Redondo Beach in So Calif is warm, much better to swim across the onshore set to safety. You can't do that everywhere.

It was really sad to watch that happen. Someone mentioned PTSD counseling, I bet they don't even think of it, but a nice thought, for sure.

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Old 14-04-2017, 06:23   #90
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Re: Small yacht capsize and crashes into Redondo pier

It looks like the jib sheet was fouled until around 1:02. He was close to the buoy. Prior, he seemed to correctly bear away/downwind to avoid the pier hazard. Then 1:03 the video is edited and starts again where he is closer to the pier and seems to have the jib up yet the crew is manually securing the jib sheet, arms shaking.

Additionally, he only has the small jib and the wind is coming from the direction he is trying to head. The pier is misleading because it is actually perpendicular to the wind and not to the shore like most piers. The wind appears north/northwest. The channel heading is north/northwest. So, not going to happen. Physics doesn't give.

He tries to extreme close haul it with an uncontrolled jib but the jib sheet might still be fouled or it is not lead aft, it is lead across the deck and the crew appears to be trying to lead it across the deck to capture more wind to power.

Without total control of the jib, no main power and no auxiliary engine the helmsman should have never attempted a direct upwind channel entrance with a pier hazard downwind. He had a choice to steer seaward and wait for assistance.
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