Sloop vs Ketch upwind

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by james247

Agreed if cruising to windward is ones goal then a sloop is appropriate . But as allllll cruisers agree every day to windward is a day in hell.
All sailing routes of the world are off the wind. It's all about comfort and efficient off wind sailing. But there are the days when we must win ground to a windward location and to sail at 40 degrees is a sad and wasted experience. 32 degrees is acceptable. But 22 degrees is fantastic

22 degrees is indeed fantastic....and requires either magic or a Yanmar.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

22 degrees is indeed fantastic....and requires either magic or a Yanmar.

or an Ingrid 38 if you can believe post #29

(Are we talking AWA or TWA )

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by StuM

or an Ingrid 38 if you can believe post #29

(Are we talking AWA or TWA )

Maybe we’re measuring the wind angle through the slot and completely ignoring the compass?

[picklesandjesse]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

22 degrees is indeed fantastic....and requires either magic or a Yanmar.

Or some great drugs !!!

[valhalla360]

I think the racing aspect is pushing a lot of it. Yes, all else being equal a sloop will go upwind faster but your average cruiser avoids going upwind whenever possible.

For under 45' boats, there isn't a lot of justification for a ketch as the sails on a sloop are pretty manageable without specialized equipment. Given the lower equipment cost of a sloop and a lot of people buying smaller boats with at least some consideration of racing (where upwind is typically the deciding factor in who wins the race), the emphasis is on sloops when it comes to new sales. I think it's reached the point where the sloop is the default sailboat, so anything else looks odd to the newbie.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The final Shannon ketch design.

The Bass-O-Matic of sailboats. It's ketch! It's a catamaran! It's a motorsailer! But wait, there's more!

[Suijin]

I think the "manageability" benefit of a ketch rig is overrated. I've singled-handed both and find that more sails, more lines, more sticks etc. is actually an impediment. Give me a cutter or solent rig sloop with three reefs in the main and I'm a lot happier (and probably left with a bit more money in my pocket).

I agree about off the wind balancing superiority. It's magical when you get it dialed in.

And since the majority of us spend vastly more time at anchor than actually under sail, let's not forget about the ketch's secret weapon. The riding sail.

[IdoraKeeper]

I see that my post has drawn all the guffaws that dyslexia deserves..I meant 32 degrees not 23 degrees...23 degrees does indeed require the Yanmar. Where in auto correct when you need it.:-)

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

I see that my post has drawn all the guffaws that dyslexia deserves..I meant 32 degrees not 23 degrees...23 degrees does indeed require the Yanmar. Where in auto correct when you need it.:-)

That’s still awa....right?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

I see that my post has drawn all the guffaws that dyslexia deserves..I meant 32 degrees not 23 degrees...23 degrees does indeed require the Yanmar. Where in auto correct when you need it.:-)

Sometimes autocorrect “corrects” in the opposite direction from what we’d prefer it to. It can be entertaining or occasionally quite frightening! [emoji15]

I can only read my wind indicator +\- about 3 degrees but I feel like about 35 degrees is as good as I can hope for and only in ideal conditions are the “steps” on the gps track about 90 degrees. Usually it looks more like about 100 degree tacks.

[donradcliffe]

I sail upwind doing 9+ knots at 21 degrees AWA a lot. Its on a magical boat called Merlin, but what really does the trick is the set of 3di sails, which cost more than most cruising boats. That kind of performance is pretty common among the 70 ft sleds and TP52's. Its not as good as the Volvos 70's, IMOCA's, or the AC foiling cats.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I sail upwind doing 9+ knots at 21 degrees AWA a lot. Its on a magical boat called Merlin, but what really does the trick is the set of 3di sails, which cost more than most cruising boats. That kind of performance is pretty common among the 70 ft sleds and TP52's. Its not as good as the Volvos 70's, IMOCA's, or the AC foiling cats.

But that’s AWA. What are your tacking angles?

I sail a foiling catamaran where the AWA is always right up the snoot.....our tacking angles suck as a consequence of our speed.

[Hasbeen]

My Morgan Giles designed 40 footer, with a modern mast & the best of sails, [in 1970] including 185% genoa used to split tacks at 70 degrees in smooth water & about 10 knots of breeze, & make good over the ground at about 76 degrees.


She was about the highest pointing boat racing on Sydney harbour back in the day of serious harbour racing.


You could add about 10 degrees to that, once you were punching into even a small sea.


She was one of 3 boats rigged as our second Americas Cup challenge was to be rigged, to train prospective crews, used to sailing mast head rigs, in the techniques of the 7/8Ths rig.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I sail upwind doing 9+ knots at 21 degrees AWA a lot. Its on a magical boat called Merlin, but what really does the trick is the set of 3di sails, which cost more than most cruising boats. That kind of performance is pretty common among the 70 ft sleds and TP52's. Its not as good as the Volvos 70's, IMOCA's, or the AC foiling cats.

Is that Bill Lee's Merlin?
https://www.sailingworld.com/merlins-journey

Quite some boat!

[donradcliffe]

It was Bill Lee's Merlin until yesterday, when we did an offshore sale. I acted as buyer's agent for the new owner. Hauled the boat today and the mast,keel,and rudder will come off for trucking to its new home in Tampa.

Tacking angle is about 70-74 degrees at VMG angles, but the boat has a high mode that will tack through 66-68 degrees with the new Alan Andrews keel its 4th keel (its 4th keel).