Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-11-2017, 13:32   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Boat: Condor Trimaran 30 foot
Posts: 1,501
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

You can watch youtube about a cat rigged ketch/schooner off the wind ...just walking right on past a larger cutter rig.

One of the things alluded to but not mentioned earlier...is on short handed boats...maybe single handed or wife/husband alone...is the availability to balance the helm with smaller sail areas that cutter/sloops have more of a hassle with.

With more sticks up you can go to a shorter mast height. Which also means you can have smaller sails...which means they are easier to handle than some of the really powerful battened mains available today. There are many ways to do things with modern rigs and hardware. Harken has sliding bat cars and even very slick ball bearing cars that make sail control very slick. It is very pricey stuff.

So, when the wind is picking up and sea state is getting ugly in a hurry....I personally like smaller sails that I can man handle. I don't know if you have ever tried to handle a big main when a squall is approaching....

You can't beat a cutter to windward with a schooner, yawl, or ketch...IMO....but...mostly we try to sail off the wind...esthetics come into play for some of us...money comes into play for some of us....and competitive instincts come into play for some of us...stage of life comes into play for some of us...design biases come into play for some of us. For example I am a big fan of Wylie cat boats....and Ian Farrier designs....so many boats...so little money...so little time
alansmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 14:15   #17
Registered User
 
TeddyDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch (and +3 smaller)
Posts: 2,738
Images: 2
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
My experience is that a sloop will go to weather better than a catboat or a ketch, but I'm not sure I can explain why from a technical point of view. I used to hear about the slot effect, but many sloops are going to non overlapping headsails. Why wouldn't their be a similar slot effect from the mizzen? Why do some high performance racing cats use jibs and some don't?...
Assuming other things equal two boats, other sloop rigged and other as a ketch, ketch would have more power but also more drag compared to sloop. And to weather it's the drag what counts..

BR Teddy
TeddyDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 14:53   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NZ
Posts: 66
Send a message via Skype™ to DerekKelsall
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
My experience is that a sloop will go to weather better than a catboat or a ketch, but I'm not sure I can explain why from a technical point of view. I used to hear about the slot effect, but many sloops are going to non overlapping headsails. Why wouldn't their be a similar slot effect from the mizzen? Why do some high performance racing cats use jibs and some don't?

I would not consider the Amel a performance cruiser.

A sloop with the autopilot on apparent wind mode will go to weather better than with it on compass mode.
With the all important leading edge shape with rotating foil masts, the slot effect no longer applies. Our work with twin, side by side, wing masts on cats confirms my belief that the single wing style sail is most effective to windward and reaching - without head-sails and little or no rigging drag.

With simple rotating mast systems, I believe in rotating for cruising and racing.

Happy boating,

Derek.
DerekKelsall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 17:11   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Keehi Lagoon, O'ahu
Boat: Pearson 424 Ketch
Posts: 158
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

I previously owned a 34' sloop and now have a 43' ketch berthed in Honolulu. I really enjoy the ketch, which is easier to handle when the wind pipes up. The heavier ketch is much slower up wind, but she rides the swells sweetly..
Kalinowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 17:42   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Boat: Bristol 32
Posts: 189
Images: 2
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

I have a ketch, or "yetch," as her mast is directly over the rudder post.

Sloops are faster around the buoys, no question.

As for cruising boats, I think it is simply a matter of style. I like the sail combinations that are possible. My Bristol 32 is easier to balance than a sloop. Also, I can reduce sail area quickly by dropping the main and sailing under mizzen and jib. Works a treat. Speed was never a priority on this old CCA boat, but she sails beautifully.


Race, or cruise?

It seems to me that you pays your money and takes your choice.
Mainebristol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 17:53   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Keehi Lagoon, O'ahu
Boat: Pearson 424 Ketch
Posts: 158
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

Jib and jigger is an easy balanced ride!
Kalinowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 18:27   #22
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

Mast in front of sail = 0 drive from 15-25% of that sail's sail area. Main or Mizzen, when the wind is forward of the beam. The math ain't complicated. Plus of course you have close to double the drag, given 2 masts & sets of standing rigging.

Sloop vs. Ketch. If spreader lengths on the 2 boats are equal, then the sheeting angles on the sloop will be tighter, thus enabling you to sail closer to the wind, as the J component of the sheeting angle on the sloop's jib will be longer than the ketch's.

Sloop = Main (only) operating in jib's lee.
Ketch = Main operating in jib's lee, & mizzen in both jib & main's lee.

Sloop with a proper reefing setup = quick, easy reefing. From the cockpit should you so desire it. As opposed to having to reef 2 boomed sails.
And if you need to luff up in order to reef, you'll likely need to do so for longer with 2 boomed sails than with one.

Sloop reaching or downwind = 2 sails to trim vs. 3 or 4 with a ketch.

How many ketch's do you see with vangs? As without one sail shape will suffer at almost all wind angles.

Ketch = much smaller overlapping genoas or Code 0's. Ergo poorer performance.

Ketch = generally far less mainsail shaping controls available, & even less for the mizzen. Given that it has no permanent backstay, nor baby stays & headstays, or cutter stays, with which to control mast bend.

More difficult to mount a wind vane for self steering on a ketch, if at all. And if you do then sail area on the ketch may be further reduced. Especially as compared to a sloop.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 19:24   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Mast in front of sail = 0 drive from 15-25% of that sail's sail area. Main or Mizzen, when the wind is forward of the beam. ...
All good points. Plus a sloop will generally have higher aspect sails = more efficient for the same sail area.
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 20:00   #24
Registered User
 
Peregrine1983's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 987
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

I know the OP’s original question was about sailing performance, but i can’t resist mentioning one of my favorite aspects of my Ketch rig - it’s short. Not too many 23,000lb boats you can slip under a 50’ bridge.
__________________
Once in a while, you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Peregrine1983 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 20:38   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,007
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O View Post
To answer the OPs original question, would have to say that the statement in the ad is incorrect especially if the deck hardware layout was "similarly appointed". A ketch with a stays'l with similarly placed inboard genoa tracks would point upwind as well as the sloop with a cutter as they are essentially the same. Some ketch rigs can use the mizzen upwind with the main to their advantage if there is a big enough slot between them.

With the smaller sail sizes associated with the ketch rig it can be easier to handle by short handed crew and the various sail configurations for heavy weather are more versatile than with a sloop.
As a confirmed ketch sailor and lover for cruising... I'll point out that ketches do have something else that limits their upwind ability: More drag. The extra mast and rigging generates drag (force pushing straight downwind) without making any lift (like sails do) to pull you up.

Many people just strike their mizzen when sailing upwind because they see that it adds no boat speed. On every ketch I have sailed, that is a mistake.

The mizzen trim lets you fine tune weather helm so you get it in the "sweet spot" of 2 to 4 degrees of rudder angle that helps push you upwind by reducing leeway. Still doesn't get to point as high as a similar well sailed sloop, but... I'll take my ketch against most cruising sloops sailed by most cruising sailors and beat them up wind to the mark.

And I'll take my ketch in rough ocean water and point happily way higher than the poor soul who has a modern flat bottomed "cruising" boat can tolerate pounding into each wave. Heck, a few weeks ago in a high, short and steep SE afternoon chop in buzzards bay I was making better VMG up wind than a couple similar sized sloops could motor straight into the wind!

Ketches have been losing popularity ever since the CCA rules were changed and started to count mizzen hung sails toward total sail area for handicapping. People buy boats that look like the boats that win races just because thats what they see in the shiny magazines. People do NOT buy ketches for the same stupid reasons that they DO insist on buying boats with two steering wheels...
billknny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 21:56   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 51
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

If my understanding of aircraft aerodynamics transfers over to sailing, two or more sails would act like slotted flaps, which are the things on the back ends of wings that pilots deploy on landing and takeoff to improve lift at low speed.

Slotted flaps not only increase lift, but also reduce the lift to drag ratio. That is, they increase drag more than they increase lift. The more slots the more lift and drag.

Moreover, lift to drag ratio determines the glide ratio of an aircraft, which is how closely it can be held to horizontal flight (analogous to how close a boat can be held to the eye of the wind). If a pilot tries to fly a plane at more than its best lift to drag ratio, it will stall and fall out of the sky, kinda like a boat 'stalls' and becomes dead in the water when you pull it too close to the wind.

So the extra sail on a ketch acts like an extra slot, which makes the 'lift to drag ratio' worse. However, when a ketch is sailing more off the wind, and the sails are not pulled so tight the greater lift and even the greater drag act in the ketch's advantage.
Mozzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2017, 16:56   #27
Registered User
 
Clamdigger's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 356
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

THE 'DerekKelsall' ? Do you guys realize we have someone of Nautical Distinction posting on this thread?!! He's done some great sailboat designs and worked with some of the most notable people in the Naval Architecture field IMO!!

Mr Kelsall Thank You for taking time to chime in here. I'm a fanboy of your catamaran designs by the way. Hope you enjoy Cruisers Forum and find more time to chime in on various threads.
__________________
"Simplicity made the boat a pleasure to sail"
Clamdigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2017, 18:37   #28
Registered User
 
Oceanride007's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Up Qld Coast, near Yeppoon.
Boat: Passport 41, Custom Perry in steel.
Posts: 625
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

A ketch I used to race on (Swan 65), due to loss of halyard we couldn't raise the Mizzen. We sailed faster on the complete course without the Mizzen and over several weeks.
__________________
Oceanrider.
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
Oceanride007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2017, 19:22   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Port Ludlow Wa
Boat: Makela,Ingrid38,Idora
Posts: 2,050
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

My ketch has an 8 ft bow sprit. That changes the sheeting angle of the yankee to well inside the width of the spreaders. Unless I raise the cutter rigged jack sail, there is no apparent back winding of the main. There is slight back winding of the mizen but the extra power more than compensates for the drag. Properly trimmed you can steer her with two fingers or just let go and she will take care of herself. A vang on the main would be useful. Her full keel, 6.5 foot draft and 23 thousand pound displacement limit her acceleration after tacking. In decent winds she will hold 23 degrees off the wind with decent vmg. Lastly, she has a tall rig and a very high aspect ratio rudder. She's an Ingrid..many downsides but very few under sail.
IdoraKeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2017, 19:58   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
Re: Sloop vs Ketch upwind

> she will hold 23 degrees off the wind with decent vmg

On an Ingrid 38?


StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ketch, sloop, wind

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ? Cruising Couple Multihull Sailboats 197 04-03-2021 22:15
Upwind Problems markspencer Seamanship & Boat Handling 4 26-10-2012 04:05
Sailing Backwards Upwind ?! Oops . . . JRM The Sailor's Confessional 20 01-03-2011 16:34
Sailing Upwind - Why Would Sail Rig Be Important? planetluvver Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 22 18-10-2009 00:30

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.