Sloop, Cutter, Ketch or Cutter-ketch?

[MartinR]

I have sailed cutters, ketches, sloops, schooners. All have their advantages and disadvantages. If the balance between hull and rig is good, the boat will sail well independent. Long keeled boats benefit from a more drawn out sail plan, cutter or ketch are probably better here.

My current boat is a "slutter" ketch. Normally we use the Yankee for reaching and the staysail for beating. Sometimes the staysail is set inside the Yankee, depending on course and wind speed.

The mizzen gives little performance increase to windward, but it is decorative. As soon as you can ease the sheets a little, the mizzen provides drive. It also helps balancing the boat. In stronger winds, most ketches balance well under mizzen and jib/staysail, making for small sails to handle. Also the combination of staysail, reefed main and mizzen works well to windward, as the slot between the main and mizzen is increased.

One more tip: If the sails are too heavy to handle, just put a block at the clew for a 2:1 purchase. Suddenly your 46 winches are 92s and a kid can handle the sail.

And no, the winged keel does not give far more resistance than a deep draft keel, the wet area is about the same. Probably not even measurable.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by hpeer

There are cutters then there are cutters then silent rigs then sluggers.

A cutter with a significant bow sprit can have a largish staysail. Which I think will be different from a cutter without a work and a smaller staysail.

For us, 44’ LOD cutter with a 5’ bow sprit, our most useful sail is the staysail, on a boom. I’ve no experience with other rigs, 2 boats, both cutters.

Sorry, got interrupted.

So as I was saying...for me this is a more traditional definition of “cutter.” Even if the mast is not pushed back in the boat it is if you just look at the sail plan, because, in my example, I have a 44’ LOD boat but a 49’ sail plan. I need all that sail when the winds go light because she is a heavy old design with a lot of wetter area.

We use the staysail a lot. We have done a LOT of pushing to Windward, from Newfoundland against the westerlies to St Kits pushing against the trades. Lots of motor sailing. The staysai, sheeted in thought, provides a good bit of lift and stiffens the boat making it more comfortable.

When working to Windward tacking is a snap with the staysail on a boom. Because of the sprit, our genny is way out front and I have about 7’ between the stays. And the staysail is pretty close to the bow, and is therefore pretty big. In fact the staysail, hanked on, has a reef point.

I think this is going to be a very much different boat to sail than a cutter with no sprit and the mast pushed back, or a slugger, or a solent rig. For each of these, just within the double head sail single mast family, has different geometry and pros and cons.

I think it really comes down to how you sail, where you sail, and when you sail. For us a big ol heavy cruiser that doubles as our 6 month home, which needs to be comfortable more than fast, for us this is working out and we are happy.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I think this is going to be a very much different boat to sail than a cutter with no sprit and the mast pushed back, or a slugger, or a solent rig. For each of these, just within the double head sail single mast family, has different geometry and pros and cons.

Yes, cutter is not like cutter, there are many variations. My last boat was a heavy, 50' LOD traditional cutter with a 15' bowsprit. Very different from my current very lightweight cutter rigged ketch. But the heavy boat needed the larger sail area to move. Mainsail was 860 sq.ft. Topsail 220, so together more than 1000. No winches

I had a boomed staysail many years ago on a ketch, I really liked it. Just had to make sure nobody was forward when jibing or tacking

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I think it really comes down to how you sail, where you sail, and when you sail. For us a big ol heavy cruiser that doubles as our 6 month home, which needs to be comfortable more than fast, for us this is working out and we are happy.

That describes us too. I don't care much about speed, nor whether we should carry a spinnaker in a sock. If we were wing-wing on just the two headsails and making 4kts while dancing through the aftermath of a storm, or sailing close on all three sails as the wind picks up, I prefer being comfortable to being fast. I have no issue with either backing off or heaving to on just the main.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

That describes us too. I don't care much about speed, nor whether we should carry a spinnaker in a sock. If we were wing-wing on just the two headsails and making 4kts while dancing through the aftermath of a storm, or sailing close on all three sails as the wind picks up, I prefer being comfortable to being fast. I have no issue with either backing off or heaving to on just the main.

Spending an extra two or three days on a passage is not comfortable.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Spending an extra two or three days on a passage is not comfortable.

True for those who are uncomfortable offshore.
Not true for those who love it :-)

[hpeer]

Having only ever swipe my own boats I’m never really sure of the trade off between comfort and speed. I suppose there is some really comfortable fast boat, is there?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

True for those who are uncomfortable offshore.
Not true for those who love it :-)

If you turn 7 day passage into a 10 day passage then you are putting yourself at much more weather risk. The predictions of weather on many passages are decent for 4 days and somewhere in tne possible ball park for another few days. So you expose yourself to the most unknown weather at the end of the passage.

Pretty much every cruiser on a passage is working to get to the destination, not to spend more days at sea. Sure you can wax poetically of the romantic visions of being at sea, but cruisers are working to safely get to their destination in the shortest passage time.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Paul L

If you turn 7 day passage into a 10 day passage then you are putting yourself at much more weather risk. The predictions of weather on many passages are decent for 4 days and somewhere in tne possible ball park for another few days. So you expose yourself to the most unknown weather at the end of the passage.

Pretty much every cruiser on a passage is working to get to the destination, not to spend more days at sea. Sure you can wax poetically of the romantic visions of being at sea, but cruisers are working to safely get to their destination in the shortest passage time.

I'm on both sides of this. While I prefer to get there in good time, I am absolutely okay with heaving to for a day if I need to fix something, or need a good sleep. While I agree that there are no safe havens in the open ocean, with our more advanced vessels and electronics, even the worst us have become capable.

[Jim Cate]

It's great to be able to slow down your boat if you wish to remain at sea for a while longer. It's even greater to get there asap when you want to do that. You can slow down a fast boat, but ya can't speed up a slow one.

My boat choices over the years have reflected this philosophy, and I'm happy with the choices... they've kept us alive and mostly happy for a lot of years and miles now.

Jim

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

I'm on both sides of this. While I prefer to get there in good time, I am absolutely okay with heaving to for a day if I need to fix something, or need a good sleep. While I agree that there are no safe havens in the open ocean, with our more advanced vessels and electronics, even the worst us have become capable.

I don't see that as being on both sides. Making a quick passage that is safe for the crew size and the boat is capable of has little to do with heaving to. We heave to for a host of reasons. Wait out weather, fix something, time an entry, even make a meal more comfortably. Its just a tactic that is useful at times.

[CptCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I don't see that as being on both sides. Making a quick passage that is safe for the crew size and the boat is capable of has little to do with heaving to. We heave to for a host of reasons. Wait out weather, fix something, time an entry, even make a meal more comfortably. Its just a tactic that is useful at times.

Point taken. Then how about this. I have no issue with coming into a nice big area of dead calm en route, and spending a month there.

Or spending an extra day or two hove to ....just because. As long as I/we are safe and the boat is in no jeopardy, I have no issue with that.

And I get the whole rogue wave thing, I'm just not concerned about them if we are in deep water.

Personally, I have seen far more damage on boats from people pushing them, than by people taking their time passage making.

With that said, I also prefer to avoid bad weather, and sometimes that means pushing the boat.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

Point taken. Then how about this. I have no issue with coming into a nice big area of dead calm en route, and spending a month there.

Or spending an extra day or two hove to ....just because. As long as I/we are safe and the boat is in no jeopardy, I have no issue with that.

And I get the whole rogue wave thing, I'm just not concerned about them if we are in deep water.

Personally, I have seen far more damage on boats from people pushing them, than by people taking their time passage making.

With that said, I also prefer to avoid bad weather, and sometimes that means pushing the boat.

Sure, enjoy slopping around in the swell while in the doldrums for a month. To me its kinda like banging your head against the wall. It feels so good when you stop🤐 Everyone needs their method of doing passages. Mine says get it done.

[Jim Cate]

Point taken. Then how about this. I have no issue with coming into a nice big area of dead calm en route, and spending a month there.

I gotta wonder if you have ever been becalmed at sea? Even when there is little wind, there is usually enough swell to get most boats rolling, and it can drive you 'round the bend pretty quickly. A month of that would institutionalize most folks.

Hard on the boat too...

Jim

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by CptCrunchie

Point taken. Then how about this. I have no issue with coming into a nice big area of dead calm en route, and spending a month there.

Or spending an extra day or two hove to ....just because. As long as I/we are safe and the boat is in no jeopardy, I have no issue with that.

And I get the whole rogue wave thing, I'm just not concerned about them if we are in deep water.

Personally, I have seen far more damage on boats from people pushing them, than by people taking their time passage making.

With that said, I also prefer to avoid bad weather, and sometimes that means pushing the boat.

Yep Like our widely travelled(33 years) friends on 'Quais Quais' who took 4 months to get from Durban to Nelson, NZ on 10m LOD.
Didn't use fuel, and they and their boat were OK rounding the bottom of Australia without landing to save on OZ landing costs. Then from Nelson, NZ to Vancouver with 1 stopover at Wallace & Fortuna.
They were careful in choosing their seasons but some cruisers are quite comfortable with the challenges of taking their home off-shore.