Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 19-02-2018, 11:41   #181
Registered User
 
surf_sail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I'll do my best to take the scaremongering with your intentions being good.

Yes I have got an umbrella policy. It kicks in after the amount of primary insurance coverage has been exceeded. Self insured what is that? Your entire assets? I've been sued twice, Both times the primary companies never even consulted me. Probably easier to strike a deal and cheaper than legal fees. I've sued the state, 1/3 of the settlement, to the attn. was well worth taking the eminent domain offer. So I am not trying to scaremonger, just relating real life experiences. I'll take that back, my workmen's comp. policy was also sued, so that makes three at no cost to me.



Readers can take it for what it is or isn't worth.


You're lucky it worked out well for you.

But 90% of US households and aren't completely irresponsible for not having an umbrella coverage and are taking similar risks in all their day-to-day activities as boating (which has been pointed out to be a very safe activity).

I've had the debate on here before regarding self insurance, i.e. that the expected returns are positive and risk adjusted returns are ok too as long as you have enough assets. I don't want to rehash it. (This applies more to hull insurance than liability - but umbrella coverage is pretty cheap because it rarely gets used anyways.)

I
surf_sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 11:50   #182
Registered User
 
taxwizz's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Toronto
Boat: Small yellow rubber ducky
Posts: 700
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

This is a huge thread that seems to break down into two camps that are diametrically opposed and quite hostile to each other.

1. Boat owners who enjoy boating and understand the risks of boating and the potential liability from personal injury or property damage, and wish to protect themselves from the potential unpleasant financial consequences, This translates to a Responsible attitude, and

2. Boat owners who enjoy boating but consider themselves above and beyond the responsibilities that boating entails, and assume that they will just walk away from any liability and responsibility for their actions. They trust that having no assets insulates them from retribution. This translates to a "Screw you" attitude.

To the first group, I say well and properly done.

To the second group, I suggest that a return to the use of Debtor's Prison or flogging might be an encouragement.

You can probably guess to which group I belong.
Happy sailing everyone.
taxwizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 11:58   #183
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 13,104
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwizz View Post
This is a huge thread that seems to break down into two camps that are diametrically opposed and quite hostile to each other.
See my recent post.: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2580808
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:03   #184
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,273
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I always love all the moralizing that comes with these discussions. "People with insurance are moral, those without are immoral." No shades of grey allowed.

Some talk about ďjudgement proofĒ folk, implying they are more likely to be irresponsible and damage other peopleís property. How about rich folk who can afford to use the legal system to destroy those with less financial resources. I say this person is just as likely to behave irresponsibly b/c they know they can get away with it.

And for those who claim liability insurance = moral or responsible behaviour; what happens when you are the cause of damage that exceeds your purchased liability limit? Are you now irresponsible? Immoral? Bah...

Being wealthy doesnít make you responsible, and being poor doesnít make you irresponsible. Stop with all the baby talk.

Insurance is bought by the individual to mitigate the risk they see. If you perceive great risk from uninsured poor people, or I would say rich people who can game the legal system, then act accordingly. Buy extra insurance, or go somewhere where the risk is lower.

And if youíre really serious about making the waterways safer, then you should support a stringent and firmly-enforced boat operators license system. Make it graduated the way most motor vehicle licenses are now. Have it set a high bar for skills. This would legislate safety ó at a much higher cost, and for no very good reason (boating is already very safe!).
Well said Mike.

Those with the greatest vested interest, insure against those with the least....nothing moral, just business!

Private Insurance companies have no moral guidelines, just profit targets. Otherwise they would not ripoff lifelong no-claim customers, after the age of 65, with punitive medical premiums, full of exclusions!

Superyachts with hull values over Ä90million, insure against the underinsured without moral judgement.

In the same manner, here in Asia, with Typhoons and most local vessels without insurance, you either pay very high premiums or go uninsured and take your chances with loosing whatever assets you have, if your life is spared.

I can understand the thinking of weekend warriers in congested US waterways, wanting to legislate protection from idiots, by moralizing insurance against liabilities as a national measure of conscience.

I just wonder how many of those moralizers have massive loans on their boat, necessitating their need to carry insurance? (So why not the other guy?)
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:09   #185
Registered User
 
surf_sail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post

I just wonder how many of those moralizers have massive loans on their boat

Speaking of being irresponsible... if I can moralize for moment.
surf_sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:11   #186
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,789
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Insurance is bought by the individual to mitigate the risk they see. If you perceive great risk from uninsured poor people, or I would say rich people who can game the legal system, then act accordingly. Buy extra insurance, or go somewhere where the risk is lower.
To me thats a poorly designed system where I have to protect myself against the inability of others to live up to their liability.



Yes, my hull insurance will pay if someone is unable to or runs from his responsibility.

But that is no excuse for the crook that decideed not to stand behind his responsibility in the first place.

And of course the insurance company will do whatever is necessary to hold the poor crook accountable for the rest of his life. At least thats what they do here (another reason why being uninsured is a nogo).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
And if youíre really serious about making the waterways safer, then you should support a stringent and firmly-enforced boat operators license system. Make it graduated the way most motor vehicle licenses are now. Have it set a high bar for skills. This would legislate safety ó at a much higher cost, and for no very good reason (boating is already very safe!).
That is in place in germany for any boat over 5hp. Not a very high bar for skills but it keeps totally dumb idiots off the water.

And going boating without an appropriate license is treated like driving without a license. As a consequence of being an unlicensed idiot any offender will see his car driving license suspended for a few months. Why? because he demonstrated that he is just not mature enough to be allowed driving anything at all.
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:18   #187
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 2,592
Images: 15
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwizz View Post
This is a huge thread that seems to break down into two camps that are diametrically opposed and quite hostile to each other.

1. Boat owners who enjoy boating and understand the risks of boating and the potential liability from personal injury or property damage, and wish to protect themselves from the potential unpleasant financial consequences, This translates to a Responsible attitude, and

2. Boat owners who enjoy boating but consider themselves above and beyond the responsibilities that boating entails, and assume that they will just walk away from any liability and responsibility for their actions. They trust that having no assets insulates them from retribution. This translates to a "Screw you" attitude.

To the first group, I say well and properly done.

To the second group, I suggest that a return to the use of Debtor's Prison or flogging might be an encouragement.

You can probably guess to which group I belong.
Happy sailing everyone.
Have to say this reminds me of the old ditty; there are two types of people, those who say there are two types of people and those who know better.

First off I would add a third group. Those who get insurance because they want to go places where it is required. While there have been multiple posts about marinas requiring or not requiring proof of insurance to stay in the marina. There are also other places that require proof of insurance. I would also suggest folks check out threads at CF about insurance for boats in areas subject to hurricanes. I know my policy required I submit a written plan describing what I would do in case a named storm was headed to where I dock my boat.

I suspect there are other reasons than those two you list for why folks do or do not buy insurance.
tomfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:18   #188
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,789
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I just wonder how many of those moralizers have massive loans on their boat, necessitating their need to carry insurance? (So why not the other guy?)
I can only speak for myself: No loan whatsoever. I carry hull insurance because I consider it cheap at ~0.4% of hull value.
We have been to the Caribbean where we were had no hull insurance due to high premiums (10times higher than he Med).

I do carry liability insurance because I am liable for the damage I cause, and I can't guarantee that I can pay this from my own pockets and I don't want to loose everything I own to a stupid mistake. Accidents can happen, and everybody should be prepared for this.
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:28   #189
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 10,210
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
I can only speak for myself: No loan whatsoever. I carry hull insurance because I consider it cheap at ~0.4% of hull value.
We have been to the Caribbean where we were had no hull insurance due to high premiums (10times higher than he Med).

I do carry liability insurance because I am liable for the damage I cause, and I can't guarantee that I can pay this from my own pockets and I don't want to loose everything I own to a stupid mistake. Accidents can happen, and everybody should be prepared for this.
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:33   #190
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 13,104
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
To me thats a poorly designed system where I have to protect myself against the inability of others to live up to their liability.
I try not to argue with reality. It tends to win. If you deem the risk sufficiently high, then itís up to you to act. You canít change the world, you can only change you.

Beyond that though, you also have an inability to pay beyond a certain level. So, are you irresponsible after your liability limit? Unless you support mandatory liability insurance, and legislate limits to claims, then all youíre doing is setting artificial standards that conveniently line up with your financial abilities or views.

The FACT is, boating is a very safe activity. Third party liability insurance is very cheap because of exactly this fact. I donít insure against very low-risk events, otherwise I might be tempted to take out meteor impact insurance.

If you deem your risk to be sufficiently high, or your risk tolerance is sufficiently low, then that is your calculus. Take out additional insurance. As Pelagic puts it nicely: itís not moral, itís just business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
That is in place in germany for any boat over 5hp. Not a very high bar for skills but it keeps totally dumb idiots off the water.
It would be interesting to see before and after data on whether this has improved safety or accident rates in Germany. Canada also has a boater operatorís license system. In my opinion it is a bad program in that the skills required are too low. I also have not seen any clear indication that it has improved accident rates.

I think there is clear data which shows strict graduated licensing systems for cars have made a positive impact on accident rates. Iím not in favour of this kind of intervention for boaters b/c I think this is a solution in search of a problem (boating is already very safe). But for those who are worried about irresponsible boater behaviour, it seems to me THIS would be something they would advocate for.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:43   #191
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,789
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
Again, great for you, but it doesn't seem possible for everyone. I just received emails back today from 5 more insurance agencies in Germany, Spain and France.... none will offer a policy to a US flagged vessel period. Money has nothing to do with it.

ccannan- Both Pantenius Mallorca Spain and Bavaria said that they can not offer to US flagged vessels. Seems they are not writing new polices.

Matt
That may be caused by the legal system in the US.

US flag should not be an issue.
As a German resident I can get a US flagged vessel insured without problems, both hull and liability, as foreign registrations are pretty common in the Med. For example Delaware registration is one of the cheaper ways of obfuscating ownership for tax avoidance reasons.



Overall this seems to be a thread about US .
As a German I can only shake my head about many comments in the thread.

I'm happy that the marinas in the Med enforce liability on those visiting, to ensure we can follow our approach here as significant numbers of un/underinsured boaters would completely change the game.

And whenever I visit the US (or their caribbean backyard) I will make sure I have my back covered against uninsured boaters (never really thought about this before).
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 12:55   #192
Registered User
 
surf_sail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post



, otherwise I might be tempted to take out meteor impact insurance.


It would be interesting to see before and after data on whether this has improved safety or accident rates in Germany. Canada also has a boater operatorís license system. In my opinion it is a bad program in that the skills required are too low. I also have not seen any clear indication that it has improved accident rates.



.

Germany also requires a license for pretty much any sport. Take kiteboarding. My cousins that went through the "course" can't kite at all, and learning the rules was entirely useless. 1st one year later they don't remember the rules, 2nd there is only one right of way rule that matters in kiteboarding "don't hit anything" (mostly true for sailing too). In the end the licensing requirement is just a useless regulation that profits the "instructors".

It's amazing how people's perspective on risk differs based on their life experience. Last summer I took a 1,000 mile roadtrip through Egypt to scope kiting locations. I stopped by one resort full of Germans where I had to go through an insane song and dance just to look at the beach. When I finally spoke to the German kite instructor I asked him "what's wrong with the [Egyptian] guys at the front desk?". His response was "security is everything". I then asked him if he was also installing netting over the beach to protect from meteors. Turns out he didn't think that was funny

Glad I no longer live in Germany. It's fun to visit, but I don't want to put up with a million rules (mostly useless).
surf_sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 13:22   #193
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,789
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I try not to argue with reality. It tends to win. If you deem the risk sufficiently high, then itís up to you to act. You canít change the world, you can only change you.
I don't need to change the world. Where I live (or boat) I don't have to protect against uninsured people. The system in the med ensures the vast majority of boaters do carry insurance. Anyone ever going into a marina is insured. That leaves only a few unteachable US folks on the hook

Good thing is: Next time I will stay clear of any US flagged boat


So no problem as long as I don't visit your part of the world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Beyond that though, you also have an inability to pay beyond a certain level. So, are you irresponsible after your liability limit? Unless you support mandatory liability insurance, and legislate limits to claims, then all youíre doing is setting artificial standards that conveniently line up with your financial abilities or views.
Yes, my ability to act responsible has limits.

10 Mil is an arbitrary threshold set by the insurance companies. All I can do is chose my policy accordingly. I carry the highest 10 Mil liability and not the lowest possible (I think 2 millions).

Anything beyond 10 million (+ my own asset) is a claim that i can't satisfy.

But that affects how many claims (outside the US legal system)? maybe one in a millon claims.

This is not perfect, but a much different proposition than being uninsured, where 90% claims above say 1000 USD remain unsatisfied.

I think someone who can satisfy 99,9999% of all claims is acting more responsible than soeone who can satisfy only 10% of all claims.

(Don't nail the figures, maybe its just 99% vs 30%, but you get the picture. 10 Mil is more than nothing)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post

The FACT is, boating is a very safe activity. Third party liability insurance is very cheap because of exactly this fact. I donít insure against very low-risk events, otherwise I might be tempted to take out meteor impact insurance.

If you deem your risk to be sufficiently high, or your risk tolerance is sufficiently low, then that is your calculus. Take out additional insurance. As Pelagic puts it nicely: itís not moral, itís just business.
Its not only my personal risk but the risk of others. If I am unable to satisfy a claim it becomes someone else's problem.

If its possible and affordable to protect myself and others from these problems, than I consider this mandatory.
Not buying cheap liability insurance is to me irrespsonsible because that means if you crash into my boat your fault becomes my liability.


The insurance system in my country is tailored to protect other people from exactly this attitude. And insurances are cheap and avaialble to everyone, because our claims are limited to the damage caused (which on average is pretty low, maybe a few thousands per claim).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
It would be interesting to see before and after data on whether this has improved safety or accident rates in Germany. Canada also has a boater operatorís license system. In my opinion it is a bad program in that the skills required are too low. I also have not seen any clear indication that it has improved accident rates.

I think there is clear data which shows strict graduated licensing systems for cars have made a positive impact on accident rates. Iím not in favour of this kind of intervention for boaters b/c I think this is a solution in search of a problem (boating is already very safe). But for those who are worried about irresponsible boater behaviour, it seems to me THIS would be something they would advocate for.
This system has been in place for many decades, and there is no such comparison available.
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 13:33   #194
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,789
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
Germany also requires a license for pretty much any sport. Take kiteboarding. My cousins that went through the "course" can't kite at all, and learning the rules was entirely useless.
There is definately no licensing requirement for kiteboarding. But schools don't rent to someone who can't show proof of competence. Whatever they consider proof or competence s another story.

The only sport I can think of that requires a license is anything that flies. If you consider stuff like paragliding a sport.



Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
I stopped by one resort full of Germans where I had to go through an insane song and dance just to look at the beach. When I finally spoke to the German kite instructor I asked him "what's wrong with the [Egyptian] guys at the front desk?". His response was "security is everything".
Bad example. You could pick any hotel with decent security measures no matter what nationality.
A hotel is like a gated community. Can you go there and tell the guard to show you the private beach justbecause you want to see it?
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 13:46   #195
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 13,104
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

rabbi, you seem like a reasonable guy/gal, and Iím not trying to pick a fight with. I donít object to liability insurance, and Iíd even be open to the idea of mandatory liability insurance in the right context. What I object to is all the moralizing and accusations that accompany this discussion.

Having insurance doesnít make you a responsible person, and going without doesnít mean youíre irresponsible. Itís a cost-benefit decision based on your risk assessment.

I have no idea where youíre pulling your numbers. Unless they are based on actual data, they are simple speculation or anecdote.

BTW, Iím Canadian, not American.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat, insurance

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what insurance is mandatory for cruiser flysofia99 Dollars & Cents 16 11-08-2017 04:42
mandatory 3rd party liability insurance for foreign (canadian) vessel in Europe calbergen Europe & Mediterranean 6 10-09-2014 13:11
One of those hey there, hi there, ho there posts Noreasta Meets & Greets 13 25-09-2013 11:44
Liability Insurance TritonSailor Dollars & Cents 62 30-08-2009 20:50
Liability insurance sneuman Dollars & Cents 18 09-10-2005 03:17

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.