Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I recall riding my bicycle across colorado, new mexico and arizona on the interstate. There were bicycle signs every few miles indicating that they were perfectly legal. The law in fact required this, as no alternative roads existed. The same is true for the ocean.
So you agree that they authorities have the right to regulate where you ride your bike and by extension where you boat.

It is possible to cause damage, but also possible to always make decisions that avoid causing damage.

People who use combustion engines, require the engine to function to avoid causing damage.
So if your mast failed and knocked your skulling oar overboard....you could still paddle along against a 30kt wind to avoid crashing into the legally anchored boat a little ways outside the channel? You must be one heck of an athlete.

Who can pay for loss of life from motor vehicle "accidents"? It turns out, that no matter what your insurance policy is it is irrelevant, because the person is dead. Therefore, I agree with you then that no motorized vehicles should be allowed is a "reasonable response"
It's not politically correct to say it but yes, the FHWA has a number for what a human life is worth. Of course, insurance usually comes with minimum requirements for boat condition which helps reduce the risk of loss of life.

Suppose I mounted very rare fragile irreplacable items on the outside of my boat. If you hit them and crushed them, would you be responsible for substantial cost? This scenario is no different from someone who buys a boat that cost more than your own. You need to have your own insurance for this.
Yes, if I rammed into your boat and damaged stuff, I would be responsible. That's why I carry insurance.

As for environmental cleanup. What exactly? Obviously some boats have much more impact than others if sunk. The differences are widely different, so any kind of insurance for this is basically unfair. I would suggest the impact of engine free boats to be minimal, but it all depends on what is in the boat. Boats that spill oil.. generally they never clean that up.

Feel free to take it up with the insurance company if you want a discount for being engine free. Of course, they likely won't buy your idea that it's impossible to get into an accident and cause damage.

[SURV69]

I've never been out of the U.S., so I can now understand the dilemma that more worldly boaters face.

Two things ... when one is in NO country ... that is on the "high seas", where are you considered to be for such things as insurance? Certainly, even with U.S. coverage that is in force in the U.S. and Bahamas, must also be good for that no man's land in between also(?) ... oops, losing my train of thought....

If someone was to have a somewhat lengthy stay in an un-covered place like, say Cuba ... would actually buying a somewhat short-term insurance, "in", Cuba be a solution?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by taxwizz

That sounds like a GREAT price.
Who is your insurer?

Its Bavaria yacht insurance, but thats just a frontend agency. The policy is backed by Allianz.
Other insurers offer similar rates but most are not open for non residents.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Unfortunately, you take a very dim view of people less financially secure than you.

You make an assumption that most people don't have any assets beyond their boat/house. Ok. So how do you think they survive day-to-day? They have no income for food, repairs, fuel? Then these must be very self reliant people...

Most people do have assets beyond their boat. Most people also carry insurance. There is a strong correlation between having assets and carrying insurance.

The ones without insurance are far more likely not to have assets. Reality often correlates with a dim view. Would you prefer I lie to you and tell you it's all sunshine and daisies?

As far as surviving, I'm not sure if food banks and welfare qualify as "self reliant". I'm sure some are but most aren't doing repairs and often the engine doesn't run, so no need for fuel. When the boat gets bad enough it sinks and they find another near end of life boat someone is giving away for free and repeat the process. This is not at all unusual.

Most people have SOME assets, even if in the form of future income.
Social security for these people is usually about it or they may be working under the table...neither is easily captured thru the legal process.

The poor unfortunately are a lot less savvy at avoiding financial obligations than the rich/richer. If you think the poor can just walk away from financial obligations willy-nilly then payday lending must be a terrible (I'm talking financially not morally) business, and I assure you payday lending is highly profitable.
Payday loan places are horrible and should be outlawed but most of the people we are talking about couldn't get a payday loan...need to have paydays to get a payday loan.

Also I'm sure there is only a real minority of boaters that pay 0 federal income tax. All those vlogers will owe ~15% self employment taxes even if they only made a few thousand dollars. And if the IRS isn't paid for the 1099 income they'll track the taxpayer down in a hurry.
Something close to 50% of US taxpayers pay ZERO federal income tax. The guys we are talking about aren't running for profit blogs. There is no 1099. If they are working it's often under the table for cash and hard to prove.

Yes maybe they'll "cut a deal", but the IRS is only generous when it comes to assessed penalties. Good luck negotiating out of taxes due - if you're lucky you'll end up with a payment plan paying interest.

My Dad used to do taxes on the side for a relatively poor community and yes, if it was clear there was no money, the IRS would stop pursuing people in a heartbeat. They still technically owe the money but they wouldn't pursue them.

But enough with the IRS, that's not relevant to the discussion. The people we are talking about are largely judgement proof with no significant assets.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But enough with the IRS, that's not relevant to the discussion. The people we are talking about are largely judgment proof

Any cruisers on this forum want to admit to not having insurance yet having assets? I have plenty of assets but my San Juan 23 was uninsured. I recently got an umbrella coverage but before that it was completely self insured. Anyone else?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

nonsense. I have proven time again that I do not cause any damage. I certainly don't need insurance, I can't afford it either, so why should I be excluded from boating?

Again, as I said before. Any boat that has a motor should have insurance. This is true of vehicles on land as well. Boats without motors, that operate with sails and oars, should not need insurance. We also don't have insurance for bicycles and horse carts.

So you say because you don't have a motor you can't cause damage?

Ex 1: Your anchor swivel opens while both of us are having a beer in a bar. Your boat crashes into mine and my mooring snaps. Now my boat is on the rocks and you are faced with a 250k bill.

Ex 2: You go into a marina for one night. While you are ashore your charger catches fire, and now you have to pay for the damage to the marina pontoon, maybe two nearby motor yachts that also caught fire and sank, and the environmental damage caused by the two tons of diesel that these boats spilled.

Doesn't happen? I have seen a nice fire last autumn in Spain that was started by some electrical problem in a sailboat. The wind pushed the fire to three other boats on the pontoon before firemen arrived. Marina could not move the other boats in danger because the smoke was too thick near the fire. Gues who had to pay?


I guess your next comment is you don't have a charger. So replace "carger" by any other thing on your boat that can become hot. There is always an operating risk.


If you are a millionair and live up to your libility, OK! Go unisured! I don't care!

Otherwise you'd better be insured. If you are not I call this irresponsible behaviour.
Simply because you run on pure luck. One bad day will ruin someone elses life (or at least financials).


I am happy that European marinas are serious about this. I have never been in a marina or boatyard throughout Europe that did not ask me for insurance papers. Plus a few countries insist on insurance for clearing in.


Again: My insurance costs 110 Euro p.a.! If you can't afford 110 euro per year to protect other peoples assets from your trouble then maybe boating is not for you.


BTW: Almost everone in germany carries personal liability insurance. Its not mandatory, but only broke folks or total fools go without. I covers most personal risk, including bicycles.
It costs next to nothing, maybe 50 Euro a year for a few million liability, but doesn't cover hings like cars, boats with engines, my trees, etc.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Any cruisers on this forum want to admit to not having insurance yet having assets? I have plenty of assets but my San Juan 23 was uninsured. I recently got an umbrella coverage but before that it was completely self insured. Anyone else?

I can only speak to the US, At the size of liability judgements, being "self insured" is basically placing everything you own on the block as the result of a minor incident. I'm not holding my breath till torte reform. If you get sued the plaintiff's attn. is working on a %. Win or lose your legal fees are on you. Anyone ever seen a poor defense attn..

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I can only speak to the US, At the size of liability judgements, being "self insured" is basically placing everything you own on the block as the result of a minor incident. I'm not holding my breath till torte reform. If you get sued the plaintiff's attn. is working on a %. Win or lose your legal fees are on you. Anyone ever seen a poor defense attn..

Do you have an umbrella coverage?Only about 10% of homeowners do, and if you don't have a home you won't be able to get one...

If not, then with your point of view you shouldn't ride a bicycle, or go skiing nor should you do most other things...

So I respectfully disagree with your scaremongering.

[Mike OReilly]

I always love all the moralizing that comes with these discussions. "People with insurance are moral, those without are immoral." No shades of grey allowed.

Some talk about “judgement proof” folk, implying they are more likely to be irresponsible and damage other people’s property. How about rich folk who can afford to use the legal system to destroy those with less financial resources. I say this person is just as likely to behave irresponsibly b/c they know they can get away with it.

And for those who claim liability insurance = moral or responsible behaviour; what happens when you are the cause of damage that exceeds your purchased liability limit? Are you now irresponsible? Immoral? Bah...

Being wealthy doesn’t make you responsible, and being poor doesn’t make you irresponsible. Stop with all the baby talk.

Insurance is bought by the individual to mitigate the risk they see. If you perceive great risk from uninsured poor people, or I would say rich people who can game the legal system, then act accordingly. Buy extra insurance, or go somewhere where the risk is lower.

And if you’re really serious about making the waterways safer, then you should support a stringent and firmly-enforced boat operators license system. Make it graduated the way most motor vehicle licenses are now. Have it set a high bar for skills. This would legislate safety — at a much higher cost, and for no very good reason (boating is already very safe!).

[Matt Johnson]

[QUOTE=rabbi;2580795

Again: My insurance costs 110 Euro p.a.! If you can't afford 110 euro per year to protect other peoples assets from your trouble then maybe boating is not for you.


[/QUOTE]

Again, great for you, but it doesn't seem possible for everyone. I just received emails back today from 5 more insurance agencies in Germany, Spain and France.... none will offer a policy to a US flagged vessel period. Money has nothing to do with it.

ccannan- Both Pantenius Mallorca Spain and Bavaria said that they can not offer to US flagged vessels. Seems they are not writing new polices.

Matt

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

Suppose I mounted very rare fragile irreplacable items on the outside of my boat. If you hit them and crushed them, would you be responsible for substantial cost? This scenario is no different from someone who buys a boat that cost more than your own. You need to have your own insurance for this.

If you mount super expensive experimental solar panels worth 100k and I crash into them, this is my liability and my insurance will pay.

If you do something super stupid then maybe not. Like if you shade the panels with the original Mona Lisa (worth say 600 millions) I guess they question this practice and will refuse to pay.

But:
if you have the Mona Lisa on display inside your yacht, and I sink your yacht then my insurance would pay the maximum 10 Mil Euro for this damage - reducing my personal libility to 590 million.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Insurance is bought by the individual to mitigate the risk they see. If you perceive great risk from uninsured poor people, or I would say rich people who can game the legal system, then act accordingly. Buy extra insurance, or go somewhere where the risk is lower.

.

Exactly!

[BandB]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Thanks. I didn't realize that other Pantaenius agencies could write different policies than the UK and US branch. I sent a group email in for a quote. I also sent one for Bavaria and will see what they say.

Matt

I'd suggest you find a good marine insurance broker. Since you're US and your boat is US, I'd start with one in South Florida. They'll be able to go through the various carriers and advise you on how to go. When all else fails, one often ends up with Lloyd's.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by BandB

I'd suggest you find a good marine insurance broker. Since you're US and your boat is US, I'd start with one in South Florida. They'll be able to go through the various carriers and advise you on how to go. When all else fails, one often ends up with Lloyd's.

I've contacted 35 agencies and counting.... 5 of which are in Southern Florida. One agency has found a policy that would cover us, but it is with an insurance company that gets nothing but very poor reviews and doesn't appear to be licensed in any country.

So, my options are to go uninsured, go with a company that only value is that I have a document saying i'm insured, or? Even agencies that others here with a US flagged boat have used are no longer offering coverage.

Last time we went across the Atlantic we were able to add Europe to our current policy, but it seems things have changed now.

Matt

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Do you have an umbrella coverage?Only about 10% of homeowners do, and if you don't have a home you won't be able to get one...

If not, then with your point of view you shouldn't ride a bicycle, or go skiing nor should you do most other things...

So I respectfully disagree with your scaremongering.

I'll do my best to take the scaremongering with your intentions being good.
Yes I have got an umbrella policy. It kicks in after the amount of primary insurance coverage has been exceeded. Self insured what is that? Your entire assets? I've been sued twice, Both times the primary companies never even consulted me. Probably easier to strike a deal and cheaper than legal fees. I've sued the state, 1/3 of the settlement, to the attn. was well worth taking the eminent domain offer. So I am not trying to scaremonger, just relating real life experiences. I'll take that back, my workmen's comp. policy was also sued, so that makes three at no cost to me.

Readers can take it for what it is or isn't worth.