Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-02-2018, 15:41   #151
Registered User
 
Matt Johnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 2,936
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccannan View Post
Do a search for liability insurance on CF. This topic has been discussed before. I am a US citizen with a US documented sailboat in Europe (mosly Spain, and Portugal) have liability only insurance from Pantaenius (Mallorca, Spain). I think the policy is for 5-10 million (I'm away from home so I can't readily reference the policy). The policy also covers salvage/removal environmental damage/mitigation, etc... My boat is an 1992 Alubat OVNI 47. The annual premium is less than 800. I will probably switch to Bavaria (a German insurer) this year as their premiums are about 200/yr for similar coverage.

Thanks. I didn't realize that other Pantaenius agencies could write different policies than the UK and US branch. I sent a group email in for a quote. I also sent one for Bavaria and will see what they say.

Matt
__________________
MJSailing - Youtube Vlog -
Matt Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 17:48   #152
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 223
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CareKnot View Post
The majority of "the reasons why" in this ill-conceived conflation of ideas and issues are actually non-issues founded on false assumptions and a politically driven, left-leaning NPR diatribe. They are so deeply flawed as to be worthy of ridicule and dismissal out if hand. JUST SAY NO!

Conflating national disasters and the subsequent national relief and cleanup efforts - with a need for 'those bad ole boaters' to accept personal liability for what is legally termed, an 'Act of God' is absurd on its face. The premise is simply stupid.



JUST SAY NO!
I was going to write a long reply to the original question but I ENTIRELY AGREE WITH YOU. Auto liability insurance basically does not work either.
First the minimum amount of insurance is what .. 20K dollars ?? And that will pay for what? Nonsense. On top of that almost all Auto insurance policies come with ... wait for it... UNISURED MOTORISTS INSURANCE. Yes, even though auto liability insurance has been mandated for years, every policy I have ever seen comes with insurance for uninsured motorists. That's basically admitting that the auto insurance requirement simply does not work. An now the author thinks that mandating liability for boats will somehow work, even though auto insurance does not work. Good luck with that. I propose that we instead ban hurricanes... I'm sure that would work... :-/. Think if the amount of money that could be saved..
Dave9111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 18:24   #153
Registered User
 
taxwizz's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Toronto
Boat: Small yellow rubber ducky
Posts: 700
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
But what exactly are we talking about?
I pay around 110 Euro per year for worldwide liability coverage. That is for 10 Million Euro coverage per incident, and includes damage to other peoples boats, marinas, personal injuries, oil spills, wreck removal, fines for damage to natural resources, ...
That sounds like a GREAT price.
Who is your insurer?
taxwizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 18:34   #154
Registered User
 
taxwizz's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Toronto
Boat: Small yellow rubber ducky
Posts: 700
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherchronica View Post
There are people like the lawyer in Florida that recently filed a lawsuit for $300,000 in damages against a hotel because the valet gave the his keys to his Ferrari to a conman who went on a joyride. No damage at all to the vehicle, just the worthless lawyers brain. Which, if all but one of the lawyers I have hired in my lifetime are any indication, it was a birth defect anyway.
Silly? Yes.
But I bet the settlement made it worthwhile.
taxwizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-02-2018, 18:45   #155
Registered User
 
taxwizz's Avatar

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Toronto
Boat: Small yellow rubber ducky
Posts: 700
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Anyonoe operating a boat has a liability. If he damages something or hurts someone he has to pay for it. Period. This is something that no serious person can question.

I personally don't care if someone is excluded from boating because he can't afford insurance.
If someone can't afford insurance he is certainly unable to pay for the potential damage. If this person goes boating he is acting completly irrsponsible.

I'm not bothered by the dents someone makes into my boat. Thats just an annoyance.
Im more concerned what happens if an uninsured broke guy drives his dinghy over my head and either kills me or injures me significantly, like being disabled afterwards? Who is going to pay for HIS liability? Me? My insurance?


And what happens if this guy sinks his old ferrocement boat in the middle of the entry of a larger port or right in front of the cruise ship dock? Who pays for this damage? The anonymous tax payer?
This is the most intelligent post that I have seen here on this topic.
taxwizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 02:58   #156
Registered User
 
Matt Johnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Annapolis MD
Boat: Building a Max Cruise 44 hybrid electric cat
Posts: 2,936
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccannan View Post
Do a search for liability insurance on CF. This topic has been discussed before. I am a US citizen with a US documented sailboat in Europe (mosly Spain, and Portugal) have liability only insurance from Pantaenius (Mallorca, Spain). I think the policy is for 5-10 million (I'm away from home so I can't readily reference the policy). The policy also covers salvage/removal environmental damage/mitigation, etc... My boat is an 1992 Alubat OVNI 47. The annual premium is less than 800. I will probably switch to Bavaria (a German insurer) this year as their premiums are about 200/yr for similar coverage.
Here is the response I received from Pantaenius Mallorca Spain:

"I am afraid we cannot insure US Vessels for the voyage you describe below.

I would think you should be able to find cover with a US Underwriter !?"

I wonder If I need to get a policy for just Europe and one for just the Caribbean?

Matt
__________________
MJSailing - Youtube Vlog -
Matt Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 06:48   #157
Registered User
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 9,575
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by funjohnson View Post
Here is the response I received from Pantaenius Mallorca Spain:



"I am afraid we cannot insure US Vessels for the voyage you describe below.



I would think you should be able to find cover with a US Underwriter !?"



I wonder If I need to get a policy for just Europe and one for just the Caribbean?



Matt


You and I seem to have come to the same conclusion.
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 08:13   #158
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,643
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
Send the owners a bill, I have no problem with that.
The problem with that is the ones who could pay the bill usually have insurance and the ones who don't have insurance, will just laugh at the bill because they are judgement proof.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 08:41   #159
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: oriental
Boat: crowther trimaran 33
Posts: 4,406
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by taxwizz View Post
Originally Posted by rabbi 
Anyonoe operating a boat has a liability. If he damages something or hurts someone he has to pay for it. Period. This is something that no serious person can question.
agreed
Quote:
I personally don't care if someone is excluded from boating because he can't afford insurance.
If someone can't afford insurance he is certainly unable to pay for the potential damage. If this person goes boating he is acting completly irrsponsible.
nonsense. I have proven time again that I do not cause any damage. I certainly don't need insurance, I can't afford it either, so why should I be excluded from boating?
Quote:
I'm not bothered by the dents someone makes into my boat. Thats just an annoyance.
Im more concerned what happens if an uninsured broke guy drives his dinghy over my head and either kills me or injures me significantly, like being disabled afterwards? Who is going to pay for HIS liability? Me? My insurance?
Again, as I said before. Any boat that has a motor should have insurance. This is true of vehicles on land as well. Boats without motors, that operate with sails and oars, should not need insurance. We also don't have insurance for bicycles and horse carts.
Quote:
And what happens if this guy sinks his old ferrocement boat in the middle of the entry of a larger port or right in front of the cruise ship dock? Who pays for this damage? The anonymous tax payer?
This boat hopefully prevents the cruise ship from operating?

cruise ships cause massive amount of damage in the form of pollution, as well as spoiling otherwise interesting places, so preventing them is the opposite of damage.
seandepagnier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 08:43   #160
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 5,813
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The problem with that is the ones who could pay the bill usually have insurance and the ones who don't have insurance, will just laugh at the bill because they are judgement proof.
Best comment of the thread. This is reality.
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 08:51   #161
Registered User
 
surf_sail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The problem with that is the ones who could pay the bill usually have insurance and the ones who don't have insurance, will just laugh at the bill because they are judgement proof.


Most everyone has some assets. Most people also don't ignore a bill from a government entity. Have you heard someone laughing at the IRS because they are "judgment proof"? You're taking the most extreme cases and extrapolating it to the majority of people without insurance...
surf_sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 08:54   #162
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,643
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat_alexandra View Post

nonsense. I have proven time again that I do not cause any damage. I certainly don't need insurance, I can't afford it either, so why should I be excluded from boating?

So you are saying it's impossible for you to cause any damage? That is patently false.

If you can't pay for damage you cause, yes, the option of keeping you off the water is a reasonable response.


Again, as I said before. Any boat that has a motor should have insurance. This is true of vehicles on land as well. Boats without motors, that operate with sails and oars, should not need insurance. We also don't have insurance for bicycles and horse carts.
We also prohibit bicycles and horse carts from freeway,
so by your logic, you will be OK if we limit you to small inland ponds and keep the seaways open for those willing to take responsibility if they cause damage.

There's a difference between you not wanting to be responsible for causing damage and random unsubstantiated statements that you can't cause damage.

PS: I deleted the cruise ship ramblings as it had nothing to do with the subject.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 09:06   #163
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 10,643
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surf_sail View Post
Most everyone has some assets. Most people also don't ignore a bill from a government entity. Have you heard someone laughing at the IRS because they are "judgment proof"? You're taking the most extreme cases and extrapolating it to the majority of people without insurance...
Might want to get out and see what's going on in the real world. The ones that aren't carrying insurance frequently have no real assets and if they claim the boat as home, it's often protected from judgments.

Even with the IRS they understand what "judgement proof" is. They will often cut deals if they see there is limited money to be had and if there is no money to be had, they won't bother at all. So individuals may not literally "laugh", they will shrug and ignore the IRS bill.

Then again the people we are talking about typically pay no federal income tax, so there is no reason for the IRS to be going after them.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 09:30   #164
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: oriental
Boat: crowther trimaran 33
Posts: 4,406
Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
We also prohibit bicycles and horse carts from freeway,
so by your logic, you will be OK if we limit you to small inland ponds and keep the seaways open for those willing to take responsibility if they cause damage.
I recall riding my bicycle across colorado, new mexico and arizona on the interstate. There were bicycle signs every few miles indicating that they were perfectly legal. The law in fact required this, as no alternative roads existed. The same is true for the ocean.

Quote:
So you are saying it's impossible for you to cause any damage? That is patently false.
It is possible to cause damage, but also possible to always make decisions that avoid causing damage.

People who use combustion engines, require the engine to function to avoid causing damage. In fact they are already causing damage just by using the engine.
Quote:
If you can't pay for damage you cause, yes, the option of keeping you off the water is a reasonable response.
Who can pay for loss of life from motor vehicle "accidents"? It turns out, that no matter what your insurance policy is it is irrelevant, because the person is dead. Therefore, I agree with you then that no motorized vehicles should be allowed is a "reasonable response"

Suppose I mounted very rare fragile irreplacable items on the outside of my boat. If you hit them and crushed them, would you be responsible for substantial cost? This scenario is no different from someone who buys a boat that cost more than your own. You need to have your own insurance for this.

As for environmental cleanup. What exactly? Obviously some boats have much more impact than others if sunk. The differences are widely different, so any kind of insurance for this is basically unfair. I would suggest the impact of engine free boats to be minimal, but it all depends on what is in the boat. Boats that spill oil.. generally they never clean that up.
seandepagnier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-02-2018, 09:34   #165
Registered User
 
surf_sail's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 235
Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Might want to get out and see what's going on in the real world. The ones that aren't carrying insurance frequently have no real assets and if they claim the boat as home, it's often protected from judgments.

Even with the IRS they understand what "judgement proof" is. They will often cut deals if they see there is limited money to be had and if there is no money to be had, they won't bother at all. So individuals may not literally "laugh", they will shrug and ignore the IRS bill.

Then again the people we are talking about typically pay no federal income tax, so there is no reason for the IRS to be going after them.


Unfortunately, you take a very dim view of people less financially secure than you.

You make an assumption that most people don't have any assets beyond their boat/house. Ok. So how do you think they survive day-to-day? They have no income for food, repairs, fuel? Then these must be very self reliant people...

Most people have SOME assets, even if in the form of future income.

The poor unfortunately are a lot less savvy at avoiding financial obligations than the rich/richer. If you think the poor can just walk away from financial obligations willy-nilly then payday lending must be a terrible (I'm talking financially not morally) business, and I assure you payday lending is highly profitable.

Also I'm sure there is only a real minority of boaters that pay 0 federal income tax. All those vlogers will owe ~15% self employment taxes even if they only made a few thousand dollars. And if the IRS isn't paid for the 1099 income they'll track the taxpayer down in a hurry.

Yes maybe they'll "cut a deal", but the IRS is only generous when it comes to assessed penalties. Good luck negotiating out of taxes due - if you're lucky you'll end up with a payment plan paying interest.
surf_sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boat, insurance

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what insurance is mandatory for cruiser flysofia99 Dollars & Cents 16 11-08-2017 04:42
mandatory 3rd party liability insurance for foreign (canadian) vessel in Europe calbergen Europe & Mediterranean 6 10-09-2014 13:11
One of those hey there, hi there, ho there posts Noreasta Meets & Greets 13 25-09-2013 11:44
Liability Insurance TritonSailor Dollars & Cents 62 30-08-2009 20:50
Liability insurance sneuman Dollars & Cents 18 09-10-2005 03:17

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.