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Old 18-02-2018, 07:41   #136
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pirate Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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In many places, long gone are the days when a person can build a 16'x24' home to legally live in ... regardless of the quality of construction and the protection of the environment. In many places the minimal floor area allowed, even for a single person is thrice the noted size. Issues, such as this is no more than the issue of money and power. The affected value of nearby homes and the power that better funded citizens have to force their will.

It seems the last bastions of rights of living in a "home", an adobe, of choice(in size), exist on water, on the road and in the deep wilderness(sometimes).

Government has taken control to over-regulate the very act of a person being able to live in what he/she determines to be a suitable, but minimal, dwelling ... on land ... soon, maybe on water, on the road and in the wilderness.
No such qualms in London..

One of London’s smallest homes sells for £714,000 | Daily Mail Online

https://www.theguardian.com/business...or-sale-zoopla
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Old 18-02-2018, 08:02   #137
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

This cost “issue” for liability insurance preventing people from boating is ridiculous imo. It’s just makes no sense that people need a license and insure for a car, but neither for a boat. If you don’t have and/or can’t afford liability insurance your so called “self insurance” is story. Those are exactly the people that I have to pay for extra insurance for myself to my boat from them.

Get a grip people. Mandatory liability insurance and some type of basic license requirement to drive a boat just makes sense and is keeping with all the other laws and rules we have as a society of common laws.
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Old 18-02-2018, 08:26   #138
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

This thread resonates with a concept of chicken voting for Colonel Sanders...
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Old 18-02-2018, 08:38   #139
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Re: My Money? Our Money?

I see the issue of government taxing American citizens as a form of stealing that is allowed for the public good ... they take our money.

It stopped being our money when Uncle Sam took it. He says it's still "our", money, but he lies. We can ask him for some here and there, and sometimes he gives us some money ... if we need it ... and we thank him for it ... forgetting that he took it.

Now, Uncle Sam has grown extremely Fat and ugly. He finds it hard to get out of bed and he has invited his relatives to live with him in a home we provided him. He always complains that he needs a bigger allowance ... when we don't give him more, he puts everything on a credit card and wastes even more money. All the while he, and his relatives are eating us out of house and home. Now he has the gall to say because he has wasted his money, he now has less money to paint the walls or fix the plumbing ... things he had promised to maintain for our benefit.

Maybe our Uncle Sam needs to go on a diet, kick all his relatives out and stop wasting his allowance ... then, maybe he would have enough money to paint the walls and fix the plumbing.

This is supposed to be the basic concept of taxes ... money we no longer own, to maintain a minimal government that protects us, our rights and our well-being.

The problem is not spending money to clean the waterways(even of trashed boats by people too poor to properly dispose of them) ... it's all the money sent all over the world for other government's people ... which end up lining the pockets of those government officials.

Uncle Sam has stolen enough of our money to fund his responsibilities and that's where he should spend it.

When you realize there's not enough to maintain your own household, complain about the billions being given to ungrateful relatives.
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Old 18-02-2018, 08:39   #140
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Are there any stats on how wide spread the epidemic of $$ lost to uninsured boaters in accidents? Or is this just another case of Americans like being told what to do?
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Old 18-02-2018, 08:44   #141
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Are there any stats on how wide spread the epidemic of $$ lost to uninsured boaters in accidents? Or is this just another case of Americans like being told what to do?
I think it's a case of property rights being sacred to Americans.

Freedom from any potential property loss is more important than freedom to go boating.
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Old 18-02-2018, 08:56   #142
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

I firmly believe there should be a requirement for liability insurance as well as environmental and salvage. However, the practicality of that happening is impossible as you have the jurisdiction of every country plus the complication of every state. In the US alone, that would require laws to be passed by 50 states plus a few territories as insurance is a state issue. So, we'll have to continue to protect ourselves by paying for the uninsured boater on our policies and governments absorbing the costs in other cases.
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Old 18-02-2018, 09:12   #143
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

Everyone keeps saying that it is so cheap; well, price isn't the problem.

Pantanenius UK Unfortunately Underwriters are unable to offer Third Party Liability cover to US or Canadian registered or owned vessels.
Hodges Marine Insurance "Sorry we have no company that will do liability only"
Marine Underwriters "I am sorry but we would not be able to offer the extensive navigation you are requesting. Thank you, Mary Ann"
United Marine Underwriters Due to the expanded navigational area requested we do not have a market.
We will be unable to provide a quote.
Pantaenius AmericaThank you for considering Pantaenius America for your yacht insurance needs. Unfortunately, due to underwriting guidelines, (only write full policies) we must decline your request for coverage.

Here are only the first five responses I received when inquiring about liability policy for US boat outside the states. If anyone knows of an agency or insurance company that offers this, please let me know.

Matt
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Old 18-02-2018, 09:13   #144
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Are there any stats on how wide spread the epidemic of $$ lost to uninsured boaters in accidents? Or is this just another case of Americans like being told what to do?
When I went into the AirForce ... a long, long time ago, we(I), were told that people in general don't like having to make decisions and that not-to-worry, cause they(the TI's), will tell us what to do ....
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Old 18-02-2018, 09:18   #145
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Everyone keeps saying that it is so cheap; well, price isn't the problem.

Pantanenius UK Unfortunately Underwriters are unable to offer Third Party Liability cover to US or Canadian registered or owned vessels.
Hodges Marine Insurance "Sorry we have no company that will do liability only"
Marine Underwriters "I am sorry but we would not be able to offer the extensive navigation you are requesting. Thank you, Mary Ann"
United Marine Underwriters Due to the expanded navigational area requested we do not have a market.
We will be unable to provide a quote.
Pantaenius AmericaThank you for considering Pantaenius America for your yacht insurance needs. Unfortunately, due to underwriting guidelines, (only write full policies) we must decline your request for coverage.

Here are only the first five responses I received when inquiring about liability policy for US boat outside the states. If anyone knows of an agency or insurance company that offers this, please let me know.

Matt
I must be lucky ... I have NEVER had a problem finding liability insurance, but I note that the insurance you seemingly asked about seems to be more than I need on the American side of the Great Lakes.
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Old 18-02-2018, 09:52   #146
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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I must be lucky ... I have NEVER had a problem finding liability insurance, but I note that the insurance you seemingly asked about seems to be more than I need on the American side of the Great Lakes.
Progressive doesn't even ask any questions to get liability within the US and Bahamas.... it's just about everywhere else that is the issue.

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Old 18-02-2018, 10:53   #147
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

It seems pretty clear to me that liability-only insurance is not easy for most people to get. This conclusion comes from the survey I conducted last year, the many comments from folks here on the two forums I frequent, and from my own direct interactions with boat insurance brokers.

Its a product that is clearly available, since all comprehensive policies include it. But it seems a product most brokers and/or insurance companies are resistant to offer as a stand alone item.

Given the inexpensive cost of most 3rd-party liability (as the survey shows), and given the fact that it IS readily available as part of a more expensive insurance package, I speculate that the reason its hard to get as a stand-along product is b/c it doesnt reach the cost-benefit threshold for most brokers/companies.

In other words, it aint worth their while

I get that. Im a small business person. Sometimes its better for me to turn down poorly-paid work. Why waste my time with a client paying me peanuts when I could be fostering bigger clients.
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Old 18-02-2018, 11:24   #148
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Desiring your thoughts regarding boat owners' responsibility as to liability for recovery, removal, transport and disposal of abandoned, sunk, or beached boats and of the costs of rehabilitation and repair caused by such boats. Also desire your thoughts as to if it is appropriate for jurisdictions [i.e., countries, states, provinces, municipalities, etc.] to require boat owners to have substantial liability insurance to pay the costs of recovery, removal and disposal?

** SNIP **
The majority of "the reasons why" in this ill-conceived conflation of ideas and issues are actually non-issues founded on false assumptions and a politically driven, left-leaning NPR diatribe. They are so deeply flawed as to be worthy of ridicule and dismissal out if hand. JUST SAY NO!

Conflating national disasters and the subsequent national relief and cleanup efforts - with a need for 'those bad ole boaters' to accept personal liability for what is legally termed, an 'Act of God' is absurd on its face. The premise is simply stupid.

C'mon, next we'll require homeowners liability to extend to the cost of the cleanup of broken trees and a lifetime of possessions destroyed in the flooding that end up blocking the streets? So we should send the homeowners a bill for the cleanup too? Why do we pay taxes? For just this type of event.

The marinas that are requiring boaters to provide liability insurance is a scam. They are require to have liability coverage to operate a business. So now, the risk covered in the marina's required Commercial General Liability coverage should be shared by the boat owners? Why?

This is a sham by the insurance companies designed to expand their markets and the knee-jerk crowd is lapping it up. How about we require shoppers to have liability insurance before they could enter a store or operate a shopping cart? Same scenario, different players.

"Uuuhh, I guess you're right Rocky. We SHOULD clean up our own mess, just like Momma Moose taught me. And we could learn a thing or two from Boris and Natasha too!"

"That's right, Bullwinkle. We should pay for it twice cause that's what the government taught us too! After all, fair is... *mumble mumble mumble ..."

I'm allergic to certain types of... Ah! Ahhh! Aaaahhhhh! BULSSSSSHHT! *sniff* Excuse me.

Sure, it's ok to resent the taxes that support FEMA, the National Guard, the Coast Guard, etc., et al. But if anyone thinks that those taxes are going to be reduced because of Required No-Fault Liability Insurance; probably believes in fairies, unicorns and that the government is SO GOOD at managing your money.

Oh, don't get me started on the incredibly STUPID comparison of automobile operators issues AS IF they directly relate to floating condos and liveaboard yachts. Sure there are some vague similarities. But they aren't even in the same ballpark. We are talking about HURRICANES and devastation on a massive scale, not a pile-up on I-10. Please remember. The boats were in the parking lot.

Boat accident and operator violation statistics would support a discussion about the regulating the operation of non-commercial, planing power boats in US waters (excluding dinks of course). That said, I am not opposed to all vessels over a certain length be required to meet minimal international maritime certification for the type of boat they are operating. If you want insurance, by all means, buy it. But we should let the maritime courts decide liability based on international maritime law. They already have the power to seize property.

It seems as though we are looking to blame boaters for problems associated with boats becoming more affordable to the little guy. The answer? MORE REGULATION and MORE BUREAUCRACY? REALLY?

What is making disposal of unsalvageable boats incredibly expensive is unreasonable and inflexible regulations. Regulations are typically promulgated by special interests, corruption and fear-mongering by the mainstream media (90% of which is owned by 6 corporations and directed by 16 billionaires). And you tell me to get a grip? Really, how many serious collisions have you been involved in? Because those who have are a miniscule minority.

JUST SAY NO!
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Old 18-02-2018, 11:56   #149
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Progressive doesn't even ask any questions to get liability within the US and Bahamas.... it's just about everywhere else that is the issue.

Matt
Do a search for liability insurance on CF. This topic has been discussed before. I am a US citizen with a US documented sailboat in Europe (mosly Spain, and Portugal) have liability only insurance from Pantaenius (Mallorca, Spain). I think the policy is for 5-10 million (I'm away from home so I can't readily reference the policy). The policy also covers salvage/removal environmental damage/mitigation, etc... My boat is an 1992 Alubat OVNI 47. The annual premium is less than 800. I will probably switch to Bavaria (a German insurer) this year as their premiums are about 200/yr for similar coverage.

Hope this helps.

My own $0.02 about the debate is this. While most US citizens abhor government mandates, they are sheepish and complicit with commercial de-facto "mandates". There are still many marinas in the USA that don't demand proof of liability insurance upon rent of space. However, It is increasingly more common for marinas to demand proof of and minimal levels of liability insurance. Marinas are being forced to do this by their insurance companies. So if we can agree that some minimal level of liability insurance will eventually become a de-facto "mandate", not imposed by the government, but rather for-profit businesses, then maybe it would be advantageous to regulate the insurance market in a way that doesn't allow the sale of "liability insurance" unless it meets minimal levels of coverage, and what it covers. If that happened in the USA my guess is that premiums would drop and the coverage, and minimum levels of insurance would increase, as is found in Europe.
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Old 18-02-2018, 13:15   #150
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Re: Should there be mandatory liability insurance for boats?

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Do a search for liability insurance on CF. This topic has been discussed before. I am a US citizen with a US documented sailboat in Europe (mosly Spain, and Portugal) have liability only insurance from Pantaenius (Mallorca, Spain). I think the policy is for 5-10 million (I'm away from home so I can't readily reference the policy). The policy also covers salvage/removal environmental damage/mitigation, etc... My boat is an 1992 Alubat OVNI 47. The annual premium is less than 800. I will probably switch to Bavaria (a German insurer) this year as their premiums are about 200/yr for similar coverage.

Hope this helps.

My own $0.02 about the debate is this. While most US citizens abhor government mandates, they are sheepish and complicit with commercial de-facto "mandates". There are still many marinas in the USA that don't demand proof of liability insurance upon rent of space. However, It is increasingly more common for marinas to demand proof of and minimal levels of liability insurance. Marinas are being forced to do this by their insurance companies. So if we can agree that some minimal level of liability insurance will eventually become a de-facto "mandate", not imposed by the government, but rather for-profit businesses, then maybe it would be advantageous to regulate the insurance market in a way that doesn't allow the sale of "liability insurance" unless it meets minimal levels of coverage, and what it covers. If that happened in the USA my guess is that premiums would drop and the coverage, and minimum levels of insurance would increase, as is found in Europe.
There are two words that always get my hackles up. The first one is 'required' and the second one is 'conglomerate'.

Whenever anything is legally required there is an accompanying bureaucracy that requires funding through taxation. There are also a plethora of cottage industries that pop up around these regulations, most of which are funded at least in part by federal grants (read: more taxation).

Not too many years ago there were 90 media outlets that controlled 90% of the mainstream media. Today 6 'entertainment' conglomerates control 90% of the mainstream media. As the old saying goes, if you want to control a nation, control the narrative.

In both cases, these practices circumvent the natural checks and balances in a free market economy.

I don't really find any fault in what you stated. You make some very astute observations. I'm just not a big fan of overreach and over-regulation. So I thought I might throw my two cents worth in.

If we are going to require certifications to operate in a marine environment, the course should be free and self study. The test should not cost hundreds of dollars. Administering a test online and storing a pass-fail status is simply not that expensive. Neither is sending a certificate in the mail.

You already know how I feel about liability insurance. You should also know that I'm a general lines insurance agent and that I know a little bit about the subject.
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