Sailing upwind

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Rob

If it is excitement you want and you think downhill is boring - some years ago when we made the Canaries to Cape Verde run - the last 3 days we made 180+nm per day. So we were averaging between 7.5 and 8 knots. That means we were running at hull speed (we have a 40 foot boat). We were running with our mainsail in the 3rd reef (storm reef) and the genua in something like a 4th reef.

Exciting? Certainly entertaining and we spent all our time simply hanging on for dear life.

Downhill is not necessarily boring

I enjoy your blog. Wish you'd have caught the whales on video though.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

I'm no longer looking for "excitement." I did all that when I was younger.

I like sailing and I like all that sailing entails. I like the fact that when I change tacks, I do it. Me. The guy in charge of the boat who used all the equipment on the boat the way it's supposed to be used to go where I want to go. I didn't just set the sails and let the wind push me in the direction it's blowing, I used the wind and the sails to go where I wanted to go.

At the end of the day I can look back and say "I did that." To me it doesn't matter how hard or difficult or uncomfortable it was, I did it.


I just don't understand why some people only want to sail in 1 direction. And giving an example of how someone "sailed downwind through a typhoon" as "proof" that downwind sailing is "exciting" doesn't change the fact that, as I said in the original post, some people don't seem to like sailing upwind. Perhaps it's because not everyone does things "because it was there."

I dunno.

We all look back and say "I did that" whether up, down, left or right..
What one does is subject to where one is going, for example sailing from Europe to the States can be done two ways.. in the Tropics with the prevailing Easterlies or up at 50*N against the prevailing Westerlies.. most all choose South for the speed of wind and current assisted crossings.. 14 to 24 days..
The Northern route against wind and current will take twice or more as long.. and put a lot more wear on your boat.. and good cruisers don't like beating up their boats needlessly, it's expensive.. as they usually want to sail back after a bit..

[JamesPNW]

Weekend sailing for few hours up wind is OK. Pounding waves and unable to cook a hot meal or having a flat place to lay down for days, it is not fun.


It is like riding a roller coaster. It is only fun for 15 min, but running for hours or day. No one will want it

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Perhaps it's because not everyone does things "because it was there."

I dunno.

You'll understand better when you are trying to get someplace and you are tired and ready to be there or the wind is right on the nose or the wind has died.

My first 4 sailboats didn't have engines they were beach cats that I raced so I applied that to my monohull when I first started sailing it and sailed only after motoring away from the dock.

Then I noticed my boat would not point anywhere near as close to the wind as my high tech racing beach cats with their high aspect ratio, square topped mainsails, deep dagger boards and high aspect rudders.

So later when I would be headed home on a Sunday sailing upwind and the wind died as usual around 1030 am, I motored on in saving 6 hours.

Other times, I'd have the motor (a 5 hp outboard) running just above idle when sailing upwind with jib furled so I could "sail" 20 degrees closer to the wind to get where I wanted to go

To show you how many cruisers motor down the Chesapeake Bay into the Southerly wind, I was struck by something that seemed odd one morning after I had sailed off anchor at 0800. It was that I spotted a rather large (44') sailboat sailing a tack into the wind to the SE. Wind was SSW and building from 12 knots

I was like now that is odd I wonder what's up. (a rather large sailboat coming down the bay sailing into the wind, not motoring)

So as an old racer and since I had position, I figured I'd see how long I could stay ahead of him after he tacked. He kept sailing and caught a land effect breeze and got way further south than I expected.

When he did tack, I saw his angle to the wind and was like, race over, he wins!

The boat ended up being a Navy 44, Tenacious (7.25 draft, 34.61 LWL, Disp 28,500lb, SA/Disp 16.29) and he was at that time leading the Annapolis to Bermuda Race. (which had started at 1300 the day before which was a Friday in May 2018

After I saw him tack, I looked back and saw other sails coming over the horizon to the North.

The next boat I saw was an X-442, PHRF 36. (as compared to a Cat22 of around 282) He had position (on the leader at that time) over to the Western Side of the Bay and was rocking out, really moving

The X-442 (Sly) soon retook the lead (boat for boat, not PHRF) and held it all the way to Bermuda) That boat had this what appeared to be a very expensive black jib. He was definitely tight on the wind. X442 specs; draft 7.50, LWL 36.75, Disp 21,300, SA/Disp 19.98)

I found out all these details after I returned home the next afternoon and got online to follow all the boats on the tracker and examine the name and stats of each boat. I didn't have my laptop with me onboard then.

You can still see the race on the tracker from the start in Annapolis to Bermuda

https://yachtscoring.com/race_tracking.cfm

Point is you don't see many boats (cruising size) not motoring if they are trying to get someplace

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You'll understand better when you are trying to get someplace and you are tired and ready to be there or the wind is right on the nose or the wind has died.

My first 4 sailboats didn't have engines they were beach cats that I raced so I applied that to my monohull when I first started sailing it and sailed only after motoring away from the dock.

Then I noticed my boat would not point anywhere near as close to the wind as my high tech racing beach cats with their high aspect ratio, square topped mainsails, deep dagger boards and high aspect rudders.

So later when I would be headed home on a Sunday sailing upwind and the wind died as usual around 1030 am, I motored on in saving 6 hours.

Other times, I'd have the motor (a 5 hp outboard) running just above idle when sailing upwind with jib furled so I could "sail" 20 degrees closer to the wind to get where I wanted to go

To show you how many cruisers motor down the Chesapeake Bay into the Southerly wind, I was struck by something that seemed odd one morning after I had sailed off anchor at 0800. It was that I spotted a rather large (44') sailboat sailing a tack into the wind to the SE. Wind was SSW and building from 12 knots

I was like now that is odd I wonder what's up. (a rather large sailboat coming down the bay sailing into the wind, not motoring)

So as an old racer and since I had position, I figured I'd see how long I could stay ahead of him after he tacked. He kept sailing and caught a land effect breeze and got way further south than I expected.

When he did tack, I saw his angle to the wind and was like, race over, he wins!

The boat ended up being a Navy 44, Tenacious (7.25 draft, 34.61 LWL, Disp 28,500lb, SA/Disp 16.29) and he was at that time leading the Annapolis to Bermuda Race. (which had started at 1300 the day before which was a Friday in May 2018

After I saw him tack, I looked back and saw other sails coming over the horizon to the North.

The next boat I saw was an X-442, PHRF 36. (as compared to a Cat22 of around 282) He had position (on the leader at that time) over to the Western Side of the Bay and was rocking out, really moving

The X-442 (Sly) soon retook the lead (boat for boat, not PHRF) and held it all the way to Bermuda) That boat had this what appeared to be a very expensive black jib. He was definitely tight on the wind. X442 specs; draft 7.50, LWL 36.75, Disp 21,300, SA/Disp 19.98)

I found out all these details after I returned home the next afternoon and got online to follow all the boats on the tracker and examine the name and stats of each boat. I didn't have my laptop with me onboard then.

You can still see the race on the tracker from the start in Annapolis to Bermuda

https://yachtscoring.com/race_tracking.cfm

Point is you don't see many boats (cruising size) not motoring if they are trying to get someplace

Great post, but the best (and most familiar) part is when your instinct kicks in and you just had to race the guy. It's so true what they say: If there are two sailboats in the vicinity of each other, it's a race.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Great post, but the best (and most familiar) part is when your instinct kicks in and you just had to race the guy. It's so true what they say: If there are two sailboats in the vicinity of each other, it's a race.

Yeah, I had the instinct but there was no race.

The boats when I saw was them were still several miles away so I couldn't tell whether the first one was some old full keel boat or what but when he tacked ......race over.

He was very tight on the wind.

Those front three boats in that race were as follows:

Navy 44 Tenacious PHRF 78

X-442 Sly PHRF 36

Frers 45 Divide By Zero PHRF 33

I was sailing my Bristol 27. Bristol 27 PHRF 240

But I'm soon going to look at a Cal 31 PHRF 156.

Which will have a bit more performance with it's LWL, Fin Keel, and spade rudder, and SA/Disp of close to 18.

Other boats in the race.

https://yachtscoring.com/media_entry_list_class.cfm

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yeah, I had the instinct but there was no race.

The boats when I saw was them were still several miles away so I couldn't tell whether the first one was some old full keel boat or what but when he tacked ......race over.

He was very tight on the wind.

Those front three boats in that race were as follows:

Navy 44 Tenacious PHRF 78

X-442 Sly PHRF 36

Frers 45 Divide By Zero PHRF 33

I was sailing my Bristol 27. Bristol 27 PHRF 240

But I'm soon going to look at a Cal 31 PHRF 156.

Which will have a bit more performance with it's LWL, Fin Keel, and spade rudder, and SA/Disp of close to 18.

Other boats in the race.

https://yachtscoring.com/media_entry_list_class.cfm

It's the thought that counts!

Those are some pretty mean yachts.

In Boston, there's an 80' schooner I like to "race" as we tack out of the harbor, meaning I am trying to see if I can point higher and tack more efficiently until I get the hell out of her way as she blows by me.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Both the Ranger and Catalina seem to be solid and well worth more than what the current owners are asking. I think the Ranger's outboard is worth almost as much as they want for the entire boat. But what do I know about any of that, I'm still a n00b and don't even know if I can comfortably stretch out in the berth of a boat that small.

Maybe I need a hammock strung from the mast to the backstay to sleep in?

I'm not a competition driven person. I compete with myself for quality and personal satisfaction of a job well done, but I don't push myself for the glory of getting a trophy. It's just not my style. Which is why "the plan" is to crew on a wet Wednesday boat that isn't really interested in "winning" and merely wants to go sailing.

And like I said, maybe it's me. Maybe I don't know enough. Maybe I'm crazy for liking the feel of the boat as it cuts through the swells with the sails full and it's getting a little lean on. Maybe I'm nuts for wanting to experience all the joys and trials of the ocean and a trip that doesn't seem to be an endless repeat of yesterday's repeat of the day before. And maybe I'm misunderstood for wanting my time on earth to be as rich and full and rewarding as I can possibly make it without compromising too much.

I dunno. Maybe it's me.

Well... I don’t think anyone has suggested that you not make your life as full and rewarding as you can. If you choose a boat like the Catalina or Ranger, both fun little boats, they sail well because they are light with fin keels. They will bounce around more and that gets a bit tiring after a day or so. Heck even the heavier little boats still bounce around a lot. Your body is always instinctively repeatedly responding to or compensating for the motion. It’s probably a good way to lose weight, ‘cause you probably won’t be having any big meals too. My friends have a Catalina 27 and it performs well, but its particular motion makes me a bit queasy in choppy seas. There is a Columbia 38 near me, old school, skinny and deep, and I hear it is really comfortable going upwind and points pretty well considering it’s vintage. I haven’t had the pleasure of feeling it firsthand yet.
When you feel ready, the California coast offers some beautiful opportunities for lots of spirited upwind sailing once north of Pt. Conception.

[Belle25]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yeah, I had the instinct but there was no race.

The boats when I saw was them were still several miles away so I couldn't tell whether the first one was some old full keel boat or what but when he tacked ......race over.

He was very tight on the wind.

Those front three boats in that race were as follows:

Navy 44 Tenacious PHRF 78

X-442 Sly PHRF 36

Frers 45 Divide By Zero PHRF 33

I was sailing my Bristol 27. Bristol 27 PHRF 240

But I'm soon going to look at a Cal 31 PHRF 156.

Which will have a bit more performance with it's LWL, Fin Keel, and spade rudder, and SA/Disp of close to 18.

Other boats in the race.

https://yachtscoring.com/media_entry_list_class.cfm

Does your Vristol sail upwind good?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

It's the thought that counts!

Those are some pretty mean yachts.

In Boston, there's an 80' schooner I like to "race" as we tack out of the harbor, meaning I am trying to see if I can point higher and tack more efficiently until I get the hell out of her way as she blows by me.

Thanks.

Yes, I definitely had the thought which was probably due to about 450 races that I have completed on Beach Cats over the years from buoy races to 100 mile distance races.

It's simply a natural thing I guess......I did have good position though 3 miles closer to the wind than that Navy 44 but no contest.

Now if it had been say a Bristol 32, Cape Dory 30-33, Alberg 30-37, Pearson Wanderer, the race would have been on!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Belle25

Does your Bristol sail upwind good?

Not like those boats. (see above)

The Bristol 27 sails maybe 60 degrees off the wind when it gets above say 15 knots whereas they (the boats in the race I saw above) are around 30-35 degrees off apparent wind I'm guessing

Old full keel Water boats">blue water boats like my Bristol 27 are great though for running downwind in the trades if you can deal with the sparse existence

The PHRF Rating gives you some idea of how a boat will sail upwind because many races start with an upwind leg, and it's very important to get the lead if you can on that first leg.

But you have to also maintain boat speed so you cannot sail too high.....this is what you learn when you have a boat just like yours about 15' to your right and left heading up wind in a race. Then it's about boat setup like mast rake, mast prebend, batten thickness, steering ability, sail selection, etc

The video below though is an America's Cup match race between two baots....

http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo6Y1swINA0

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Old full keel blue water boats like my Bristol 27 are great though for running downwind in the trades...

Compared to what, a brick?

Old full keel boats tend to be narrower than modern boats, they have unnecessary excess wetted surface for going downwind, they tend to be pinched aft, they often have barn door type rudders providing poor steering control downwind in a running sea.

And comfort wise they they roll around a lot 'downwind in the trades', they have smaller cockpits, deck space, etc, etc. And they are just plain slow on that point of sail compared to a modern boat.

They would be one of my last choices for 'blue water... running downwind in the trades', where most of any possible advantages of a heavy full keel design are negated.

I get that you like your boat, and that's great. But let's not get too carried away.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Thanks.

Yes, I definitely had the thought which was probably due to about 450 races that I have completed on Beach Cats over the years from buoy races to 100 mile distance races.

It's simply a natural thing I guess......I did have good position though 3 miles closer to the wind than that Navy 44 but no contest.

Now if it had been say a Bristol 32, Cape Dory 30-33, Alberg 30-37, Pearson Wanderer, the race would have been on!

You would've diced any of those. Come at me when I'm on a J 27 and we'll party. In fact, I'll give you a break and take the J 24, to even up the lwl..

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Compared to what, a brick?

Old full keel boats tend to be narrower than modern boats, they have unnecessary excess wetted surface for going downwind, they tend to be pinched aft, they often have barn door type rudders providing poor steering control downwind in a running sea.

And comfort wise they they roll around a lot 'downwind in the trades', they have smaller cockpits, deck space, etc, etc. And they are just plain slow on that point of sail compared to a modern boat.

They would be one of my last choices for 'blue water... running downwind in the trades', where most of any possible advantages of a heavy full keel design are negated.

I get that you like your boat, and that's great. But let's not get too carried away.

Yeah she rolls on the downwind (and rolls, and rolls, and rolls) but for the $2,000 price tag, the boat had on it when I bought it, it has done pretty well these last 9 years.

Here is a video of my old Bristol getting me out of trouble when the wind piped up to 34 knots and the wind was against the tide. Wind was laying down by this point but the wind is still whistling thru the rigging. I had too much sail up also.....

2nd video is of a Contessa 26 full keel boat running the trades to the Caribbean from the Canary Islands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nXfjcCuiPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuFK-uzwjRU

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

You would've diced any of those. Come at me when I'm on a J 27 and we'll party. In fact, I'll give you a break and take the J 24, to even up the lwl..

Okay, give me a couple years to get used to the Cal 31 PHRF 156, and I'll race you on your J 24 PHRF 168!

Distance race, not buoy.....and open water