Sailing upwind

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

So far, I've heard that about half do and the other half has a ton of excuses why they don't.

It's uncomfortable.
It's hard on the boat.
My "crew" doesn't like it.
It's too difficult in narrow channels.
Too dangerous.
Faster to go downwind.

Meanwhile, the ones who do are like...
YEAH BABY!!!

OK, I'll try to explain it to you again

The unequivocal "one's who do" are the day sailors, not long distance cruisers.

The long distance cruisers also often say "Yeah Baby" when day sailing in sheltered waters, but are not so keen on it for open sea passages.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well Rob, I did know that there are other channel islands out there... I've sailed to most of them. But you were talking about how your local (real?) sailors did the trip to Catalina, not to the outer islands... and that's not a real tough arena to sail in, up wind or down.



And while it may be true that YOU have never been in a boat that is faster downwind than upwind, that is not a common experience in cruising boats (or most boats of any sort for that matter). Example: Our current boat has a hull speed of 9+ knots. Under ideal conditions, we can approximate that speed close hauled, but those conditions are pretty rare. In moderate winds (~20 kts true) and flattish water, we can exceed that speed a bit (low tens) on an apparent beam reach. But downwind in a breeze, with poled out genoa and mainsail, and modest following seas we easily reach low 12s and have had a few mid 15s to enliven our sailing. Sailing as we do with only two aging cruisers as crew, we don't use a kite in strong winds... only as a speed improver in light stuff, so I don't know what sort of speeds that sail might offer us. And removing a couple of tons of our worldly possessions might help too!

So yes, I reckon that your lack of experience (as you suggest above) might influence your outlook... and perhaps your opinions of other's sailing habits as well. There may well be folks who own sailing yachts that don't like to sail and seldom do so. But there are plenty of cruisers who don't fit your description as "boaters" and yet who avoid passages to windward when possible. The folks like Fred (Wings) represent the far end of the curve... inveterate sailors who resist the motoring urge nearly always, and they deserve our admiration. Maybe Fred is the only one here that you view as a real sailor... few of us cruisers are as dedicated as he and his wife are.

Jim

There are a couple of points I feel obliged to make. Not just to you, to a few others too.

1. is that I'm not insulting anyone by asking questions and posting my thoughts. I feel how I feel on the various subjects I opine on and if someone wants to feel differently, then I'm not going to say they can't. Obviously, several here believe that the way they sail is "better" than the way I want to sail.

Trying to call me before the mast for being inexperienced, and therefore dumb, won't wash. I"m asking questions and questioning the answers because that's how I learn. Questioning the mistakes of others so that they don't make those same mistakes is how smart people learn. Questioning what I'm told isn't "you're not listening." The questions are there because I am listening. If anyone feels insulted because of it, that's on them, not me.


2. Anyone stating "I have more experience than you do" is not being helpful because that is nothing more than an attempt to put me in a position of subservience. "Do as I say because I say it" is not advice, it's a command. And a very poor teaching style.


3. Besides the fact that prior to about 1900 sailboats didn't have motors, somewhere out there is a story about a guy who bought a boat without an engine and sailed it to never never land (or close enough to make no difference) without ever installing a motor.

I kind of wonder if he ever sailed to windward. Maybe he rowed his boat back to port, through the narrow channel, against the current, both ways, in the snow?

Found it. This guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqUG...ature=emb_logo

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Go back and read the OP. It's not "ME" who is saying people won't sail to windward, it's the people who post you tube videos saying it.

I'm only asking why they don't.

So far, I've heard that about half do and the other half has a ton of excuses why they don't.

Rob, all you're doing is demonstrating that you have very little experience, and know very little about what you speak. It's great you're out there learning on a little daysailer. Maybe once you've got a few more sea miles under your keel you'll understand.

You say you're asking questions. Experienced cruisers keep giving you the same answers, but you don't want to accept them, or call them "excuses."

Learning requires listening.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Rob, all you're doing is demonstrating that you have very little experience, and know very little about what you speak. It's great you're out there learning on a little daysailer. Maybe once you've got a few more sea miles under your keel you'll understand.

You say you're asking questions. Experienced cruisers keep giving you the same answer to your questions, but you don't want to accept them, or call them "excuses."

Learning requires listening.

He'll change his tune when he's tried making breakfast pancakes going upwind in 25kts..

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by boatman61

He'll change his tune when he's tried making breakfast pancakes going upwind in 25kts..

That reminds me, I had to make some kind of prune cake desert for the crew one time many years ago when we were going upwind... I haven't been able to stand the smell or taste of any prune desert since!

But I see no need to be critical. It is your passion, Rob, for the enjoying all the experiences and extremes available that will make you a really good sailor IMO. I think I may see racing in your future

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Rob, all you're doing is demonstrating that you have very little experience, and know very little about what you speak. It's great you're out there learning on a little daysailer. Maybe once you've got a few more sea miles under your keel you'll understand.

You say you're asking questions. Experienced cruisers keep giving you the same answer to your questions, but you don't want to accept them, or call them "excuses."

Learning requires listening.

Some experienced cruisers are giving the same “avoid upwind for offshore passages” answer. Bummer for them and they don’t speak for all cruisers.

You are missing all the experienced cruisers who do sail upwind when necessary and don’t go to any lengths or extended waits to avoid sailing upwind. They’re not bothering to chime in.

Not all boats are uncomfortable upwind, generally bigger and/or heavier boats are more comfortable, and a catamaran that can sail well is even more comfortable due to almost no heel. If you need a n=1 statement about sailing upwind on passages, not a problem for us and not something we avoid.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Some experienced cruisers are giving the same “avoid upwind for offshore passages” answer. Bummer for them and they don’t speak for all cruisers.

You are missing all the experienced cruisers who do sail upwind when necessary and don’t go to any lengths or extended waits to avoid sailing upwind. They’re not bothering to chime in.

Not all boats are uncomfortable upwind, generally bigger and/or heavier boats are more comfortable, and a catamaran that can sail well is even more comfortable due to almost no heel. If you need a n=1 statement about sailing upwind on passages, not a problem for us and not something we avoid.

Perhaps we're all reading a different thread here. What I see experienced cruisers saying is that long upwind journeys tend to be less comfortable, and they avoid them if they can. But if upwind is where one has to go, then cruisers go upwind. No one is saying they don't do it. Recognizing reality is not making excuses.

Of course bigger boats are more comfortable upwind. Bigger boats are generally more comfortable in every way -- except at the dock or on the pocketbook .

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Don C L

That reminds me, I had to make some kind of prune cake desert for the crew one time many years ago when we were going upwind... I haven't been able to stand the smell or taste of any prune desert since!

But I see no need to be critical. It is your passion, Rob, for the enjoying all the experiences and extremes available that will make you a really good sailor IMO. I think I may see racing in your future

No criticism.. just sailing bareboat day trips in a mono is a lot different to sailing your home upwind in suboptimal conditions unless it can't be helped.. 15kts no sweat.. 25knts stuff it..

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

3. Besides the fact that prior to about 1900 sailboats didn't have motors, somewhere out there is a story about a guy who bought a boat without an engine and sailed it to never never land (or close enough to make no difference) without ever installing a motor.

I kind of wonder if he ever sailed to windward. Maybe he rowed his boat back to port, through the narrow channel, against the current, both ways, in the snow?

Rob, you're not wrong about this. As a matter of fact, before the proliferation of motor-powered vessels, Friendship cutters like the one pictured below were the lobsterers' choice. To get to their traps and back, they no doubt had to point, reach, and run throughout the course of their day. It was a hard life.

Then again, lobsters are trapped near shore. So they probably didn't sail upwind for days.

Incidentally, the Friendship in the picture is now a tourist boat. The skipper has his main and staysail up, but he's motoring.

[Jim Cate]

Trying to call me before the mast for being inexperienced, and therefore dumb, won't wash.

Rob, I'm about outta here, but do try to remember that it was YOU who brought up your inexperience first, and I was but agreeing that it likely colored you opinions.

Now you are gettin' huffy and putting new words in my (and others) mouths.
You don't seem to want to hear other opinions or experiences which don't agree with your hypotheses. That interferes with your learning process IMO.

BTW, I now see that you are taking lessons in a Catalina 22. I owned one of them many years ago, and in it I made my first trips to the Channel islands (from Sta Barbara) and my first foreign cruise (Port Angeles to Vancouver and return via the Gulf islands). I had a lot of fun in that boat and learned heaps. Raced it hard in SF bay, too, and yep, did a lot of hard upwind miles in the slot doing so.

Ann and I also did the upwind passage from Bora Bora to SF some years ago... simply because we had exhausted the kitty and needed to go back to work. That was not a particularly fun voyage, but we did it. We've made the passage from the east coast of Oz to New Cal and Vanuatu a number of times, and that's upwind in the SE trades if you don't try to pick your wx carefully. And that can be an unpleasant passage as well... hard on the wind in 25-30, so we try to wait for a low to develop off New South Wales and get a couple of days of westerlies to start out on... so does that make us wimpy "boaters"? Most experienced cruisers would say no... just exhibiting good sense. What do you think?

So anyhow, keep on asking your questions. Likely you will get some answers that you agree with.

Jim

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by wingssail

And which upwind passage would you be going on that takes more than "the first week"?

we bashed our way southward against the Christmas winds from Bahamas to BVI and finally bailed out and put into San Juan. We had apparent wind of 25-30 on the nose and 3-4 meters of swell. After 7 days the weather forecast said we would hit true wind of 40 knots and swells 5+ meters.

The last 6 days of our Marquesas to Hawaii run were also with 25 knots on the nose and 3 meter choppy swells on the nose

You get very tired of "walking on the walls"

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Go back and read the OP. It's not "ME" who is saying people won't sail to windward, it's the people who post you tube videos saying it.

I'm only asking why they don't.

So far, I've heard that about half do and the other half has a ton of excuses why they don't.

It's uncomfortable.
It's hard on the boat.
My "crew" doesn't like it.
It's too difficult in narrow channels.
Too dangerous.
Faster to go downwind.


Meanwhile, the ones who do are like...


YEAH BABY!!!


Maybe it's me. I dunno.

I think that you are misunderstanding many of the answers. Going uphill for long distances is really tough on both boat and crew. If you are in a monohull then you will be "walking on the walls" - which gets really old after a day or two. Cooking becomes a challlenge when you ahve to strap yourself to the stove so you can make a hot meal. Trying to eat that hot meal when the boat is heeling heavily is a real problem when you need to literally "hang on with one hand so you don't go flying around the cockpit.

We sail upwind passages when we have to - but we prefer to avoid it. As to "getting there faster" - well for most cruiser, they aren't terribly concerned with a passage taking a couple of extra days - they are more concerned with having a safe and comfortable passage.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I think I may see racing in your future

Ahhhh, that'd be a big no, nope, nuh uh, ain't happening.

Well, maybe some beer can racing after I get my ASA stickers so that I can learn more but it's not my passion. I'm not competitive that way in any of the hobbies I've had over the years.

On the other hand, there's a couple of good looking (in the pics) CHEAP boats in San Diego that are surprising the heck out of me that they're still available. If I could take a week off from work and had a good weather window, I'd be thinking real strong about looking at them and doing the bash from there to here. A shakedown sail with an overnight stop in Orange County, an overnight in Avalon if things look good with the boat, and then a long day/night sail home.

What's stopping me is that I'm not ready yet. I don't have the necessary knowledge to inspect a boat OR the electronics/maps/etc or experience to skipper an unfamiliar boat alone for that long in unfamiliar territory. Hiring a delivery captain would take all the fun out of it and a survey would make them too expensive a proposition.

If it weren't for that, I'd be on Amtrak asap.

But racing? No thank you.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by StuM

But what about the more important VMG/VMC ?

If I knew what those meant, maybe I could say.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by boatman61

He'll change his tune when he's tried making breakfast pancakes going upwind in 25kts..

This is not me, I can't do this anymore. Too old, too broken, too everything, but maybe it's the fact that I like a challenge that makes cooking while heeling seem not so intimidating?