Sailing upwind

[Group9]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Never doing that again!? Us neither. i think 6,800 n mi. to windward cured us of that, for a day in and out sort of thing.

Ann

It didn't take that far for me. One of the most miserable sails I ever had in my life, was heading north across the Gulf of Mexico, in February, in a north wind, and beating the whole way, while being really cold at the same time.

I sold that boat, and got out of sailing, one hundred times in my head on that trip

And, yes, it was a schedule, the stupidest of all reasons for doing it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Be Free

Anything past 15 degrees is just wasting wind on my boat. I'll go much faster with one or even two reefs if I keep the heel at or below 15 degrees. YMMV

Back at ya. Heel is obviously good and necessary, and the amount varies with the type of boat. Long overhangs mean you need a good heel to get some LWL, and therefore speed. But I've never known a crusing-type of boat to require much beyond 15º for peak efficiency. Maybe a racing boat, or small thing, but not a cruising boat (and this is the Cruisers Forum, after all).

The other problem with deep heel is not just that you're reducing your keel efficiency, therefore making more leeway, but you're also reducing your rudder's ability to steer. Add to that all the unnecessary strain on boat and rigging, and it really isn't something to aspire to ... unless you're just out for some fun.

Rob, no one here is saying they don't sail to wind. Those are your words. 70 nm is a nice day sail, so sure, no biggie. We're talking cruising boats, who may spend many days to many weeks making a passage. When a 70 daysail becomes a 700 mile week sail, it goes from being fun to a necessary slog.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

I haven't sailed a J 88 but I've spent plenty of time on j 27s, and I'd say you have one of the better boats for enjoying upwind sailing performance.

Absolutely. It's like they knew I wanted to pull on strings and get better results, too. Adjustable jib cars, adjustable back stay, in haulers, a great boat to play on, and quite close winded too.

[Don C L]

Here I think also that owners of different boats will have different reactions to a point. Certain boat designs and certain boat lengths (as in longer!) do better. My little 29 footer is a fine little boat, but compared to the Peterson 44 I sailed once, there is little comparison, it's a different ball game altogether IMO. Going upwind in the Peterson on a blustery day was easy; I just punched through, and pointed higher, in seas that would have set a smaller, or fatter, or slower, boat back, of course, and without much of the slamming a flatter hull might deliver.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by fxykty

There must be a lot more to that story

One of my favorite boats, it definitely wasn't a criticism of the outreamer, I'd like one.

They experienced a failure of the front seagull striker (is that what's it's called?) , they abandoned the boat , picked up by a ship.

I contacted Danny a couple of mths after the event but never got a reply.

All boats can fail given the right circumstances, that's an extremely rough hard trip that can expose weaknesses, I doubt very much it was any design weakness, more like a delayed maintenance problem, the boat was getting old.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

who may spend many days to many weeks making a passage. When a 70 daysail becomes a 700 mile week sail, it goes from being fun to a necessary slog.

Reminds me of a 700 Nm delivery a few years ago from Madang to Port Moresby.
Planned for just after winds and currents generally switch to coming from the NW. It didn't turn out that way. We ended up beating into unseasonal SEers alll the way down the north coast from Madang to Milne Bay. And the seasonal current change hadn't occur on schedule either so we were against that as well.

Going through China Strait, winds switched to NWers so it was another beat all the way back up the south coast again into the current that flows down from Torres Strait.

[Nauticus]

I've a Grampian 26 and it loves beating into the wind. Never happier!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by daletournier

One of my favorite boats, it definitely wasn't a criticism of the outreamer, I'd like one.

They experienced a failure of the front seagull striker (is that what's it's called?) , they abandoned the boat , picked up by a ship.

I contacted Danny a couple of mths after the event but never got a reply.

All boats can fail given the right circumstances, that's an extremely rough hard trip that can expose weaknesses, I doubt very much it was any design weakness, more like a delayed maintenance problem, the boat was getting old.

Dolphin striker.. you'll likely be fitting one on the Wharram if it's a Tiki..

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Here, the "Baja Bash" is a very well known phenomenon. The usual weather/ocean conditions combine to make returning home a trip into both wind and current.

This is why there is a booming business in delivery skippers doing the "Bash" for the not-so-eager owners returning from Baja.

To me it's strange to hear that others don't sail into the wind while most of the local cruisers who go to Mexico do it on a regular basis. From here (Channel Islands Harbor), even a (long) day sail to Catalina Island would mean a 70 Nm return trip "upwind" against the current the whole way. People do it all the time. There's even a you tube channel (sailing Tritea) where they leave LA and visit the Channel Islands on a regular basis and they're not alone in doing it.

With all due respect, the conditions between Catalina and the mainland are pretty benign, even upwind, and not to be compared with an upwind passage of any length in open ocean. And the fact that it is, after all, a "long day sail" puts it in a different category than a more extended voyage.

So I don't get it. It's a "sail" boat. Why are people motoring when sailing into the wind is the second fastest design feature of the boat? Why do they only sail downwind? I'm getting the idea that most sailors only sail to get to the destination (and the grog) as if the trip isn't important at all other than the fact it was "free."

Don't know what you mean by "second fastest design feature", but close hauled is surely not a point of sail that competes with reaching or running for max speeds. Most modern yachts will easily exceed hull speed surfing when sailing deep angles, and I'm not familiar with any cruising boats that will do so upwind.

Maybe they're "boaters" and not "sailors"?

That last is a nice put down... I am suitably chastened for having sometimes motored upwind when I could have sailed. Oh the shame of it all...

Jim

[desertsailor]

The above comment remind me of one of my first trips heading north along the Pacific Coast. Started out in Panama, and ended up in San Diego with a crew of 4, plus the skipper. One crewmate was an older Canadian seadog that fancied himself a racer. You knew when he was at the helm, because the vessel would suddenly heel 20 degrees. One night he kept the vessel pointing close hauled. When the skipper relieved him, found out he was going 180 deg. from the entended path!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by daletournier

One of my favorite boats, it definitely wasn't a criticism of the outreamer, I'd like one.

They experienced a failure of the front seagull striker (is that what's it's called?) , they abandoned the boat , picked up by a ship.

I contacted Danny a couple of mths after the event but never got a reply.

All boats can fail given the right circumstances, that's an extremely rough hard trip that can expose weaknesses, I doubt very much it was any design weakness, more like a delayed maintenance problem, the boat was getting old.

Seagull striker is the one that points up to oppose the forestay loads. It’s located on the front beam. Some boats with fibre beams don’t need them, but alloy beams do. Dolphin strikers are not seen on bridgedeck cats and point downwards to oppose the mast loads. You’ll see them on beach cats under the mast.

Losing the seagull is not a good thing, but doesn’t have to result in losing the mast. I can’t imagine abandoning without losing a mast, and even then jury rig or motor to safe harbour. I wouldn’t call a broken seagull striker a failure of the boat or of maintenance as it is a welded aluminium part. The martingale stay, which goes over the seagull striker is a normal part of the standing rigging. Note that with the first generation Outremers the front beam is non structural.

We lost ours during a passage to Fiji from NZ - I’ve described it previously on here (back in 2017). Fortunately we were on a close reach, so the forestay wasn’t fully loaded, but we did have 5m breaking seas and 25 knots TWS. We immediately furled away the jib and dumped the main sheet, then third reefed the main. We led the gennaker and spinnaker halyards to either bow and wound them in tight. The remaining 700 miles we sailed with just enough jib to balance the autopilot but not so much that the front beam started to pump. We didn’t have any Dyneema rope at the time so couldn’t rig anything that held from the bow pole stay pad eyes, which are directly under the front beam just above the waterline.

[Pauls]

Rob P - LA to Catalina is a reach both ways under normal conditions.

[wingssail]

For as long as I can remember when I needed a sailing fix, like I hadn't been out of the slip for a couple of weeks, what satisfied the need was to go to windward.

Put on a big genoa and sheet it in hard and get going up wind.

That is sailing!

Now days we sail where we want to go, upwind, downwind, or reaching, whatever, depending on the destination. We don't care. Upwind in flat water is fantastic. Upwind in the ocean is also fantastic. Let the boat work the waves, trim it so the boat is happy and the VMG is best. Last time we went to La Paz it was three days of upwind work in 18knots of true wind. Perfect! We worked the shifts. You take your off watch in a amidships bunk with the lee cloth holding you snug. It's fine and you feel really good when you look at your tacks and progress on the plotter.

Yes, in 25 knots of wind it is less pleasant due to the slamming in the waves, so we'd rather slow it down and crack off a bit. We still do it. No worries.

Other points of sail? Rolling is not fun. So we wish it wasn't so rolly at times.

Broad reaching or running? Put up enough sail so you can fly. That is great too. Spinnaker is thrilling.

So my advice to people who don't like upwind...

Keep your boat optimized for sailing, including upwind. Keep the ends light. Keep the windage down. Keep the decks clear. Keep things ship shape. Keep toys off the stanchions. Clear away the covered wagon cockpit and let the wind and spray hit you in the face once in a while. Make sure you have good visibility forward. Learn to trim your sails for efficiency. Be able to set a smaller headsail. Keep the weather helm off your boat. If you are a sailor, you will love this stuff. Otherwise you will be thinking about selling the boat and getting a 5th wheel.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Seagull striker is the one that points up to oppose the forestay loads. It’s located on the front beam. Some boats with fibre beams don’t need them, but alloy beams do. Dolphin strikers are not seen on bridgedeck cats and point downwards to oppose the mast loads. You’ll see them on beach cats under the mast.

Losing the seagull is not a good thing, but doesn’t have to result in losing the mast. I can’t imagine abandoning without losing a mast, and even then jury rig or motor to safe harbour. I wouldn’t call a broken seagull striker a failure of the boat or of maintenance as it is a welded aluminium part. The martingale stay, which goes over the seagull striker is a normal part of the standing rigging. Note that with the first generation Outremers the front beam is non structural.

We lost ours during a passage to Fiji from NZ - I’ve described it previously on here (back in 2017). Fortunately we were on a close reach, so the forestay wasn’t fully loaded, but we did have 5m breaking seas and 25 knots TWS. We immediately furled away the jib and dumped the main sheet, then third reefed the main. We led the gennaker and spinnaker halyards to either bow and wound them in tight. The remaining 700 miles we sailed with just enough jib to balance the autopilot but not so much that the front beam started to pump. We didn’t have any Dyneema rope at the time so couldn’t rig anything that held from the bow pole stay pad eyes, which are directly under the front beam just above the waterline.

I cant remember all the details, it was 2018 when it happened, I do remember reading about the gull striker, they may have lost the rig to ,I seem to remember that being the case but I cant be certain.

It was on the Indian ocean Facebook site.

My point was , there's enjoyable going to wind flat water type day sailing and theres really tuff upwind ocean passages, hard on crew and the boat. I realize you understand that.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Dolphin striker.. you'll likely be fitting one on the Wharram if it's a Tiki..

Nope, dolphin strikers and seagull strikers are two very different things. Almost the exact opposite in fact.

AFAIK, Outremers don't have the former (actually, I can't think of any large cruising cat that has one).
Small Wharrams use them to counter the mast compression.