Cruisers Forum
 

Go Back   Cruisers & Sailing Forums > The Fleet > General Sailing Forum
Cruiser Wiki Click Here to Login
Register Vendors FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Log in

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-12-2020, 15:11   #16
Registered User
 
Alan Mighty's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Moreton Bay
Boat: US$4,550 of lead under a GRP hull with cutter rig
Posts: 2,141
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epicurean View Post
Still, the path to Sunda is not clear.
Indonesian paper charts show the Archipelagic Sea Lanes. At least some electronic charts show the ASLs (or ASLPs).
__________________
“Fools say that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always contrived to gain my experience at the expense of others.” - Otto von Bismarck
Alan Mighty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 15:32   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in Montt.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,187
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

April 26 years ago I did Singapore - Western Australia via Sunda....
From Singapore ( Changi) through Selat Raiu outside Kepulauan Lingga and then through Selat Bangka.

Went non stop ... don't recall seeing any nets or fishing stuff.... motored through Bangka... picked up the SE trades in about 4º 30'S.... about 90 miles north of Sunda.
Wind fell light halfway through Sunda.... picked up again just south - 30 miles maybe- of the Strait.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 16:08   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Alcochete Portugal
Boat: Mumby 48
Posts: 305
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
Indonesian paper charts show the Archipelagic Sea Lanes. At least some electronic charts show the ASLs (or ASLPs).
It's interesting that the ASL go everywhere. Selat Bangka, shallow and quite close to shore, is one. I would have thought that's exactly where the fishing would be intense.
Epicurean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 16:23   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Alcochete Portugal
Boat: Mumby 48
Posts: 305
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
April 26 years ago I did Singapore - Western Australia via Sunda....
From Singapore ( Changi) through Selat Raiu outside Kepulauan Lingga and then through Selat Bangka.

Went non stop ... don't recall seeing any nets or fishing stuff.... motored through Bangka... picked up the SE trades in about 4º 30'S.... about 90 miles north of Sunda.
Wind fell light halfway through Sunda.... picked up again just south - 30 miles maybe- of the Strait.
Thanks for your route. And it's the time of year I'm interested in. That's the shortest path - 500 nm. I get about 1nm/liter. Soooo, I just have to put on 20 jerry jugs to get through. It's certainly cheap enough; $0.43/liter or ~ $215. I might even get some wind. But I can't imagine how much fun motoring for 4 days straight would be.

In the Singapore Strait you aren't allowed to sail. I don't suppose Indonesia would stop me but it probably depends on the traffic flow.

You went 26 years ago. GPS was just replacing SatNav. Did you have one? I can't imagine going anywhere now without 3 chart plotters!
'
Epicurean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 16:28   #20
Registered User
 
Alan Mighty's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Moreton Bay
Boat: US$4,550 of lead under a GRP hull with cutter rig
Posts: 2,141
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
From Singapore ( Changi) through Selat Raiu outside Kepulauan Lingga and then through Selat Bangka.
Yes. That's the route now called (confusingly by different names) ASL 1D, ASL ID, or ALKI 1D. Where ASL = Archipelagic Sea Lane; and ALKI = Alur Laut Kepulauan Indonesia.

The deal for the main ASL (or, confusingly, ASLP for Archipelagic Sea Lane Passage), such as ASL 1, is that Indonesia has published the waypoints for the centreline. And tolerates vessels 25 nmiles either side of the centreline. Indonesia of course notes that it does not warrant that the centreline is in the deepest water or is the best route. And Indonesia is also clear that the centreline is not the divider of a TSS.

The rules for the 'minor' ASLs, such as 1D (through the Riau and through Selat Bangka) are not clear to me.

That route is clearly in coastal waters.

I think that US Navy vessels claiming innocent passage and Freedom of Nav Operations can choose to follow those routes, but I think a cruiser without visas would be ill-advised to follow the routes these days. For Indonesian-flagged vessels and for cruisers with AIS B operating and appropriate visas, I think passage on ASL 1D is no problem.

The waypoints for the centreline of ASL 1 (aka ALKI 1) are well-known and published widely (including in the relevant US NGIA Sailing Directions (Planning Guide)). See attached graphic. The structure of the TSS in Selat Sunda are now also known (see the graphic in one of my earlier posts in this thread).
__________________
“Fools say that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always contrived to gain my experience at the expense of others.” - Otto von Bismarck
Alan Mighty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 16:40   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in Montt.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,187
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epicurean View Post
Thanks for your route. And it's the time of year I'm interested in. That's the shortest path - 500 nm. I get about 1nm/liter. Soooo, I just have to put on 20 jerry jugs to get through. It's certainly cheap enough; $0.43/liter or ~ $215. I might even get some wind. But I can't imagine how much fun motoring for 4 days straight would be.

In the Singapore Strait you aren't allowed to sail. I don't suppose Indonesia would stop me but it probably depends on the traffic flow.

You went 26 years ago. GPS was just replacing SatNav. Did you have one? I can't imagine going anywhere now without 3 chart plotters!
'
The only craft we met in Bangka apart from a few coasters were local sailing craft..... in tow..... seems there was a trade which involved sailing towards somewhere in the east.... and then one boat would tow a string of 3 or 4 back towards the west.....
Had a GPS... no plotter...paper charts....
All in all saw very little traffic except in Sunda.

Re the ASLs..... I took the day job up to Singapore for drydock in 2004 or 5... went via Sunda and followed the ASL that went northeastish and had us entering Singapore Strait from the northeast.. ships coming out of Tanjung Priok along with local traffic were going every whichway....
I think they only really apply to commercial through traffic.
Also... I would also prefer to take a chance on nets than anchor along the Sumatran shore.... the bit opposite Singapore down by Selat Durian was Pirate Central... maybe still is.....

We had previously gone Langkawi to Singapore.... Singapore onwards was far less stressful than Mallaca Strait.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 17:13   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epicurean View Post
Thanks. Yes unlit boats and nets is my fear and why I might want to anchor at night. I believe cyclones after April 1 should be rare. I intend to stay around 12°S. I might check at late season cyclone history. And certainly I'll have weather radio (Predict Wind) to monitor
Are you headed west across the Indian Ocean?
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 17:57   #23
Registered User
 
Alan Mighty's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Moreton Bay
Boat: US$4,550 of lead under a GRP hull with cutter rig
Posts: 2,141
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Re the ASLs..... I took the day job up to Singapore for drydock in 2004 or 5... went via Sunda and followed the ASL that went northeastish and had us entering Singapore Strait from the northeast.. ships coming out of Tanjung Priok along with local traffic were going every whichway....
I think they only really apply to commercial through traffic.
I have to disagree with El Pinguino.

Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines have been moving deliberately to increasing their maritime (and aerial) security.

Malaysia has publicly acknowledged its arrest of several ships that anchored in coastal waters without permission in 2020. I think it will not be long before it arrests cruisers doing the same.

The Philippines tried to put an Archipelagic Sea Lane law, similar to that of Indonesia's, through its houses of Congress. I am not clear what happened (I think nothing).

Indonesia has moved inexorably towards greater control of air and sea, working incrementally. Indonesia is slowly by surely taking back Air Traffic Control over airspace formerly controlled by Singapore Changi with little regard for national boundaries.

The declaration of Indonesia's ALKI (ASL) has moved incrementally but unerringly forward. With respect to non-commercial vessels (i.e. cruisers and the like), Indonesia moved from its CAIT system to visas plus AIS (B).

Enforcing cruisers - at least those without visas and appropriate other permissions - to use ALKI/ASL and TSS is the current step.

Note well the recent history of Indonesian Ministers of Maritime Affairs and Fishing. Susi was perhaps the most successful to date - she battled both local powerholders foreigners in her fight against illegal fishing. To the point of arresting illegal fishing vessels and their crew, imprisioning the crew and burning the vessels. The minister after Susi, Edhy, had a short tenure, abbreviated by his corruption, but he took a step back from the boat-burning initiated by Susi. The current minister is just in office and has not yet demonstrated his control of power.

I'd suggest that any cruiser bold enough to transit coastal waters of Indonesia without visas and permission, and especially to anchor in those waters, is running the risk of being made an example, by Viking boat-burning.

Indonesia has limited resources, including in governance. It moves slowly and incrementally. Much can be negotiated. Limits it imposed can be hard. Or soft. At times.

I include a density map, from Marine Traffic, including the Selat Sunda. Meditate upon it. I think fishing pressure and all traffic, including tug and tow, has increased in the past few decades.
__________________
“Fools say that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always contrived to gain my experience at the expense of others.” - Otto von Bismarck
Alan Mighty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 18:06   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

We came up through Indonesia to Singapore last year. Didn't see any officials, other than check in, who cared about us for the 3 months we were there. Certainly no attempt to keep you the shipping lanes. One advantage of the shipping lanes was that they were more clear of the fishing fleet, often by only a few meters.
__________________
Paul
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 18:25   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Back in Montt.
Boat: Westerly Sealord
Posts: 8,187
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Simple fix.... enter Indonesia at Batam.... clear out at Merak.... peace of mind for a few $$.
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 20:29   #26
Registered User
 
Alan Mighty's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Moreton Bay
Boat: US$4,550 of lead under a GRP hull with cutter rig
Posts: 2,141
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Simple fix.... enter Indonesia at Batam.... clear out at Merak.... peace of mind for a few $$.
Exactly!
__________________
“Fools say that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always contrived to gain my experience at the expense of others.” - Otto von Bismarck
Alan Mighty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 21:48   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Simple fix.... enter Indonesia at Batam.... clear out at Merak.... peace of mind for a few $$.
I guess it depends on your definition of simple and a few dollars. This is certainly the safest way to pass through. But pretty expensive in money and time if all you want is a couple of nights in empty anchorages and maybe some diesel jerry jugs at one stop.
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2020, 21:55   #28
Registered User
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,891
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
Y
The deal for the main ASL (or, confusingly, ASLP for Archipelagic Sea Lane Passage), such as ASL 1, is that Indonesia has published the waypoints for the centreline. And tolerates vessels 25 nmiles either side of the centreline.
That's the "Law"
But only when there is sufficient room. It can be less than 25 NM passing islands

UNCLOS Article 53 Para 5

5.Such sea lanes and air routes shall be defined by a series of continuous axis lines from the entry points of passage routes to the exit points. Ships and aircraft in archipelagic sea lanes passage shall not deviate more than 25 nautical miles to either side of such axis lines during passage,provided that such ships and aircraft shall not navigate closer to the coasts than 10 per cent of the distance between the nearest points on islands bordering the sea lane.

I'm not sure how to interpret that.
Either it means that if an island is 10 NM from the centerline, you have to stay within 9NM of the centreline (INM from the coast)
Or it means that if an island is 10NM from the centreline, you have to say within 1NM of the centreline.
I think it means the former.
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-12-2020, 14:36   #29
Registered User
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,891
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
Unsurprisingly, the Indonesia Navy (TNI AL) spent time considering exactly that issue, StuM.

They opted for the latter. And used the example of the Selat Lombok, with a distance from island to island of 10 nm. Therefore the tolerable limit is for vessels to stay within a band 1 nm (10%) wide.

In the case of Selat Lombok, the question is (probably) now moot. That's because the TSS in Selat Lombok was scheduled by the IMO to take effect from mid-2020.

See the attachment.



Thanks for that. Great info that I will file away
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-12-2020, 15:03   #30
Registered User
 
Alan Mighty's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Moreton Bay
Boat: US$4,550 of lead under a GRP hull with cutter rig
Posts: 2,141
Re: Sailing the Sunda Strait

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
I'm not sure how to interpret that.
Either it means that if an island is 10 NM from the centerline, you have to stay within 9NM of the centreline (INM from the coast)
Or it means that if an island is 10NM from the centreline, you have to say within 1NM of the centreline.
I think it means the former.
Unsurprisingly, the Indonesia Navy (TNI AL) spent time considering exactly that issue, StuM.

They opted for a version of your latter option. And used the example of the Selat Lombok, with a distance from island to island of about 10 nm.

What happened after that required very careful consideration and confused me, perhaps because of the low level of my mathematical expertise, my low level of fluency in Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Inggeris, and my low level of barracks legal skills. The discussion seemed to involve two calculations: 1. the width of the channel in which vessels could navigate through the gap between two islands; and 2. the width of the available channel on one side of the centreline.

With respect to No. 1, everyone (TNI officers and interlopers such as myself) all seemed to agree that the tolerable navigable channel was 1 nm (10%) wide.

With respect to No. 2, the senior TNI officer seemed to me to be intent on regarding the centreline as the axis of a TSS. And so was calculating the distance from centreline to the nearest island, and then calculating one-tenth of that.

My problems with that were:
(a) ASL centrelines are not meant to be axes for a TSS; and
(b) I sail and do my best to avoid motoring. And I've been in conditions beating to windward in a narrow 1 nm wide channel and used the entire 1 nm channel width in my tacking.

In hindsight I am clear that TNI was then, in 2014 - 2015, already thinking about Traffic Separation Schemes. Naturally, a TSS requires much in the way of resources from the archipelagic nation (maintaining AtoNs, monitoring passage, ship-to-shore communications). A TSS, such as in Selat Sunda and Selat Lombok, gives the archipelagic nation much more control over foreign-flagged passage.

On the question of resources, note the situation in Selat Melaka (Malacca Strait) - unless the situation has changed in the past year or three, Nippon still underwrites a big proportion of the cost of AtoN maintenance of the shipping channels in Selat Melaka.

On the question of control, I wonder whether our brothers and sisters in the PRC might consider establishing a TSS in, say, a carefully selected location in the South China Sea. That ought increase the demand for popcorn should US Navy choose to run aFoNOps exercise.

In the case of Selat Lombok, the question is (probably) now moot. That's because the TSS in Selat Lombok was scheduled by the IMO to take effect from mid-2020. A TSS defines the sides of the channel explicitly. And defeats the question of proceeding under sail power.

See the attachment.

Any intelligent reader will find lots of new questions to raise and old points to discuss further.

[In my efforts to remove ambiguity from my first draft, I exceeded my editing privileges. Above is a better but not perfect version.]
__________________
“Fools say that you can only gain experience at your own expense, but I have always contrived to gain my experience at the expense of others.” - Otto von Bismarck
Alan Mighty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, sailing


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Refueling Sunda Straits TabbyTig Navigation 0 11-03-2019 01:51
PNG to Sunda Strait via Halmahera/Banda Sea TabbyTig Weather | Gear, Reports and Resources 0 02-06-2018 06:29
Cook Strait Weather, NZ seafox General Sailing Forum 124 17-12-2007 01:24
Multihull on Strait of Georgia Tom Spohn Multihull Sailboats 3 04-09-2007 20:23
Solo Cook Strait Crossing seafox Seamanship & Boat Handling 19 24-01-2007 02:06

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.