Sailboat sadness

[valhalla360]

I see two factors combining to create the issue.


In the 50-60's, you saw a transition from wood to fiberglass. Fiberglass pretty much lasts forever.


Combine that with economics. If you throw enough money at it, you can keep an old boat going for a very long time but eventually, it's not economically viable. At some point it's cheaper to buy a newer functional boat rather than put that new engine, rig, etc...on the old boat.


Cruising boat sales ramped up during the 90's-00's.


The end result is there are a lot of old hulls that are not economically viable and unlike an old wood boat, they aren't biodegradable.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Davy J

What you are seeing is impossible dreams. If you watch this forum, or any other sailing forum, their stories are all about the same, I am moving down from XXX (whatever cold place).

They want to buy a sailboat and set sail over the horizon. Unfortunately, the boat they bought for a few thousand dollars needs sixty-five thousand dollars of repairs and upgrades.

Then the marina starts to cost too much, so I'll just anchor it over here........

Then an every month visit becomes every six months, then about once a year, and then, well I can't remember when I was there last............

Going to ruin it for all of us.............

I think this is a very large part of the explanation. Combined with the folks who thought a boat would be a dirt cheap place to live, until they found out about all of the compromises and expenses that are involved.

Now, whether or not they will ruin it for all of us, I don't know. But it is quite clear that all of these abandoned boats are a big part of the push for more anchoring restrictions in Florida (even though there are already perfectly adequate laws in place to deal with derelicts).

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Davy J

What you are seeing is impossible dreams. If you watch this forum, or any other sailing forum, their stories are all about the same, I am moving down from XXX (whatever cold place).

They want to buy a sailboat and set sail over the horizon. Unfortunately, the boat they bought for a few thousand dollars needs sixty-five thousand dollars of repairs and upgrades.

Then the marina starts to cost too much, so I'll just anchor it over here........

Then an every month visit becomes every six months, then about once a year, and then, well I can't remember when I was there last............

Going to ruin it for all of us.............

You see the same or similar thing at airports, lots and lots of old dead airplanes sitting on flat tires, annuals overdue and will some day be scrapped, I guess a couple of differences, one they are at airports not scattered about the country, and they have some scrap value.
The days of the Plumber, Electrician and or Machinist flying are gone though, not even really all that many Doctors anymore, most of new flying is done by the very wealthy in "Business" jets.

There is still the Middle class in sailing though, largely I believe because there are so many cheap boats around, but bringing an old Gal back is a lot more money and work than the majority realize and most give up.

Now South Fl is I believe an issue all unto itself, because I believe most of those boats come from exactly where Davy says they do.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Don C L

So does that mean sailing is now back to being only a rich man's sport? Is there no hope for the middle class in sailing?

Not sure about middle class, but certainly the working class are struggling at the moment. The UK has a fixation with everyone wanting to buy a house and the middle classes wanting to buy several to rent out. This has resulted in house prices rising at an astronomical rate fuelled by a previous Government of 13 years spending way beyond their means. I don't think they were the only Gov doing this. So the average mechanic, plasterer and plumber doesn't have the disposable income available 15-20 years ago. So fewer new boats and buyers for anything over the price of a good second hand ordinary saloon car.

If you want a speed boat for the summer then finding £5000 is achievable by most. But if you want 30ft plus yacht at £20,000 well that is a completely different aspiration requiring serious long term borrowing and repayments which the working class just can't afford.

[got seashells?]

I sat there yesterday and at first I was upset at the thought of the contents of the boat going into the water and all of the harm that can cause then it hit me about the lost dream or forgotten pleasure. It just looks like someone gave up. Only there are so many of them its hard to not get the feeling that this is a precursor. The marinas have a bunch of boats that have not moved in years as is evident by their conditions but to see the ones listing on their sides, just sort of saddens the soul.

[Lizzy Belle]

We see more and more derelict boats too.

We don't really have anchorages, so they're mostly in marinas and some canals. The marinas can't just get rid of them so the boats just sit there, looking all sad and green and forgotten

It has nothing to do with 'broken cruising dreams' here, or living aboard (which is fairly rare in the Netherlands). Just people that bought a boat for fun ... until the work and finances became too much.

Most are smaller boats, power and sail, tho I see more and more larger and more expensive boats go to waste here in the marina too. Very, very sad.

[IntoMyHealth]

For the sake of perspective, I don't think I've ever seen a derelict sailboat here in New England. At least not enough to make note. Not that they're all pretty.


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[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Don C L

So does that mean sailing is now back to being only a rich man's sport? Is there no hope for the middle class in sailing?

Sailing is not a social class thing. Yachting is.

Define rich. I am.

b.

[NOLA_sailing]

Sometimes the interest in sailing is sustainable but certain life factors are not. A disinterested partner, young children, sick parents, etc. Can drain the finite resources of time and money to not only maintain a boat but enjoy it. Toddlers are much easier to manage on a pontoon deck boat than they are in the confines of a cockpit or an open deck.

Sometimes, as has been discussed numerous times in the FL anchoring threads, a boat may only look derelict and really just needs a good scrubbing. My deck and hull are covered with dirt, algae, and leaves. But it takes me great effort to be able to use or even check on the boat more than once or twice a month so cleaning the decks never makes it very high on the to-do list (unless, of course, the in-laws are coming aboard); especially since it will prob be dirty again by the time I am able to return.

[unclemack]

My parents' generation had to deal with WWII but for a good number of years after that working people could afford to buy a house with just one waged partner.

My generation had decent free education, good jobs were easy to find and two wages could buy a house.
We're retiring now and doing OK mostly, still spending the ridiculous "profit" from the house, enjoying the last of the final salary pensions and keeping what's left of the economy just about ticking.

Much harder for young people today to get educated, get a job and get on the housing ladder without parental help, much less buy a boat I'd guess.

Just talking UK here, other countries have more sense than to base a whole economy on house prices and shopping.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by IntoMyHealth

For the sake of perspective, I don't think I've ever seen a derelict sailboat here in New England. At least not enough to make note. Not that they're all pretty.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Up north it tends to take care of itself. The guy hauls the boat for the winter and it never gets launched again. Or they give up after one winter and head south where the boat dies when they run out of money to keep it going.

[alctel]

Income tax on the rich and corporations are the lowest they've pretty much ever been, not even taking into account all the tax dodging you can do if you are rich enough to pay a decent accountant. The reduced income has led governments to slash social services, meaning that a lot of previously 'free' things now have to be paid for separately, or have been privatised and are now run for profit so cost a lot more to the end user.

At the same time, wages have stagnated, the labour market has not adjusted to the ever increasing ability of machines to do a humans job, and domestic unions dropped the ball in a big way by ignoring 3rd world countries and their unions (or treating them with hostility), allowing companies to outsource jobs to places were people are paid pennies a day. This has also led to increased work hours.

Basically, everyone has less money except the rich, who have more of it, and there is a lot less time and energy to go around. Younger people also have mountains of debt from education to pay off as well.

On the plus side I only ended up on a boat because I couldn't ever hope to afford a house and I was tired of renting - and discovered I actually LOVED sailing! So it's not all bad




Also what that other person said about fiberglass boats not really rotting!

[NOLA_sailing]

Originally Posted by alctel

Younger people also have mountains of debt from education to pay off as well.

In the United States, at least, the government has five organizations that have been providing free college tuition for years: Army, Navy, Air force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. They'll even guarantee you a job for when you're finished. That's how I got both of my degrees debt free. In return, I got to learn how to blow stuff up.

[grantmc]

We have exactly the same problem of seemingly derelict boats all over New Zealand. There are some issues though:

- Scrapping a fibreglass boat is actually quite difficult.

- Sail boats deteriorate very quickly if not used regularly. I think that for some people, once their boat’s developed a few issues it becomes more difficult to use. People perhaps think ‘to sail I need to fix A B and C but I don’t have time this weekend’ so they put it off for a couple of weeks. Before they know it the two weeks have become two months. By then the list of problems includes D, E and F also. None of the problems at this stage are too difficult or expensive, but they require effort and time that the owner doesn’t organise the time for the issues. And two months can easily become two years, and by then the boat will be showing serious TLC needs.

- People’s lifestyles today aren’t conducive to sailing as they were in the 1970s and 80s, (eg both partners working, the apparent need to buy ‘stuff’, kids needs etc). No matter what type of boat you have it’s going to mean dedicating the best part of an entire day. Drive to/from, set up and shut down boat takes time, even for just a couple of hours sailing. And it’s always weather dependent. Even the most dedicated sailor can find their own situations and/or available time changes; job demands, family demands, illness, new interest, whatever.

- I think too that much of the time people don’t want to accept their boat is worth far far less than what they paid for it, and so there’s a real reluctance to sell the boat and realise that loss. Somewhere in the postings above is a story about a broker talking about a woman who wants to get back the money spent by her now deceased husband. And that seems reasonable but it’s actually not. New masts, new sails, new engines etc are simply fixing what’s broken.

- An example I see often on this forum are newbies asking for advice about a boat they’re looking at and they often include ‘has recently had a bottom job’ as a feature. Well hello, most boats in most parts of the world need anti fouling about every 12-18 months. And unless you’re affluent that means you’ll be doing it yourself. And so for most people, as well as sailing, an owner needs be able to make available several days each year just for basic maintenance.

- The move to huge cats must have significantly diminished the demand for monos.

A conundrum I do struggle with though is this: Often there are posts from people who’ve concluded they’re going to spend several hundred thousand dollars, buy a huge cat and sail the world. They’ve typically never sailed before and also mention they’ll be attending some sailing courses and read books to learn the skills. I’ve never quite understood why they don’t just buy one of those cheap little keelers and learn to sail and more importantly, from the experience they gain, decide whether they actually do like sailing along with all the boat maintenance and ownership issues.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by grantmc

- The move to huge cats must have significantly diminished the demand for monos.

A conundrum I do struggle with though is this: Often there are posts from people who’ve concluded they’re going to spend several hundred thousand dollars, buy a huge cat and sail the world. They’ve typically never sailed before and also mention they’ll be attending some sailing courses and read books to learn the skills. I’ve never quite understood why they don’t just buy one of those cheap little keelers and learn to sail and more importantly, from the experience they gain, decide whether they actually do like sailing along with all the boat maintenance and ownership issues.

I agree, but I think there are folks who have enough money to buy a big cat, who will probably never feel happy about buying anything less, no matter the reason... even if it makes sense. I remember a gentleman locally who some years ago bought a big, beautiful boat... I think it was a Peterson 44, though he'd never been sailing. Went out one day, got sea-sick, came back and called a broker to list it. Sold it for less than he paid for it. But he had enough money that I don't think he gave it a second thought.