Rudder Failures

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Wow. You are a good sailor! Heh-heh.

Off courseeeee..

The main numbers % of boats, cruisers around the world are not rallie related...
Hard to make your numbers without that % of boats, so, your thesis sounds like the Plexus experiment, incomplete..Fact.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

On a previous post I said the the new Oysters have twin rudders. For new I mean the ones that will come after the first one with twin rudders, the Oyster 885. The 625, even if a recent model is older than the 885. Probably the last Oyster with a skeg and a single rudder.

The carbon mast is offered as an option on the other models and clearly, if they used it on their top of the line model it is because they consider it a better option, they just don't use it standard on the other models not to inflate the price.

Regarding the hull, of the 625, for instance:
"Hand lay-up GRP hull and deck with Kevlar and Carbon fibre laminates in hull. Outer hull Laminate in Vinylester resin - cored topsides. "

Regarding Oyster being heavy boats, it seems you really don't like them, maybe for having been the primary cause of Moody bankruptcy. Taking for instance the 625 that you posted as example, how can you talk about an heavy boat with a "A displacement length ratio of 182 and a sail area displacement ratio of 22.3"?
Oyster Yachts | Fleet | 625 | Overview

I know that they are a bit outdated but US Sailing in what refers ratios, in what regards the Oyster 625 and SA/D ratio considers it a racer and in what regards D/L ratio, a racer too
SA / D Ratio
D / L Ratio

So, a bit exaggerated to call it an heavy boat don't you think? Maybe a fast medium weight bluewater cruising boat?

I do like Oysters, and my knowledge of them goes far beyond the armchair, google-fingers type of superficial information. I spent a lot of time in Ipswich and sailed a number of them. I had a deposit and signed contract to buy the 485 owned by the present owner of the UK America's Cup team. I like them a lot. I think the Holman & Pye Oysters are the most beautiful sailboats ever built, with many ingenious features. Much more beautiful than my boat; no comparison at all.

And I think that you entirely miss the idea of Oyster yachts. They are made for old rich guys with conservative tastes. They have like 4 inch thick solid fiberglass in the bottoms, and full skeg rudders, just because -- that suits the taste of this kind of public.

They are heavyweights with D/L usually around 300; newer ones slimmed down somewhat but still heavy.

At the same time, they are made to live up to the occasional racing aspirations of the main customer base -- these are old, rich guys who can afford to take a year off for an Atlantic circuit and an Antigua Race Week -- across the pond always in the ARC, and back usually with a delivery crew. For the Antigua Race Week there are usually a couple of professionals crewing.

So they have very large rigs -- SA/D usually of about 20, which is intended to offset the very stodgy D/L and inefficient underbody. But a high SA/D only works in light winds or with a very intense crew on board. You can't "just reef" a sail plan sailed above its optimum wind range -- once reefed, this becomes extremely inefficient. So around here, these heavy Oysters sail around reefed all the time -- and I fly past them with my very light displacement (D/L under 190) and modest sail plan (16.5, optimized for high latitudes and strong conditions). But in the trade winds, a big rig is much better, and hence strong performance of Oysters in ARC's, well, and because of sheer numbers, organization, and factory support.

So that's what Oysters are all about -- old-fashioned heavy construction, full skeg rudders, and big sail plans. That accounts for 99% of their sales. The really big 88 foot Oysters are made one or two at a time, and are not at all part of the normal production. And even these have heavy, solid, hulls.

And I'm not saying anything bad about them -- on the contrary, I love them, despite their skeg rudders. My dream boat was for decades the H&P Oyster 68. That's despite the fact that I'm not an old, rich guy whose only dream is Antigua Race Week

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do like Oysters, and my knowledge of them goes far beyond the armchair, google-fingers type of superficial information. I spent a lot of time in Ipswich and sailed a number of them. I had a deposit and signed contract to buy the 485 owned by the present owner of the UK America's Cup team. I like them a lot. I think the Holman & Pye Oysters are the most beautiful sailboats ever built, with many ingenious features. Much more beautiful than my boat; no comparison at all.

And I think that you entirely miss the idea of Oyster yachts. They are made for old rich guys with conservative tastes. They have like 4 inch thick solid fiberglass in the bottoms, and full skeg rudders, just because -- that suits the taste of this kind of public.

They are heavyweights with D/L usually around 300; newer ones slimmed down somewhat but still heavy.

At the same time, they are made to live up to the occasional racing aspirations of the main customer base -- these are old, rich guys who can afford to take a year off for an Atlantic circuit and an Antigua Race Week -- across the pond always in the ARC, and back usually with a delivery crew. For the Antigua Race Week there are usually a couple of professionals crewing.

So they have very large rigs -- SA/D usually of about 20, which is intended to offset the very stodgy D/L and inefficient underbody. But a high SA/D only works in light winds or with a very intense crew on board. You can't "just reef" a sail plan sailed above its optimum wind range -- once reefed, this becomes extremely inefficient. So around here, these heavy Oysters sail around reefed all the time -- and I fly past them with my very light displacement (D/L under 190) and modest sail plan (16.5, optimized for high latitudes and strong conditions). But in the trade winds, a big rig is much better, and hence strong performance of Oysters in ARC's, well, and because of sheer numbers, organization, and factory support.

So that's what Oysters are all about -- old-fashioned heavy construction, full skeg rudders, and big sail plans. That accounts for 99% of their sales. The really big 88 foot Oysters are made one or two at a time, and are not at all part of the normal production. And even these have heavy, solid, hulls.

And I'm not saying anything bad about them -- on the contrary, I love them, despite their skeg rudders. My dream boat was for decades the H&P Oyster 68. That's despite the fact that I'm not an old, rich guy whose only dream is Antigua Race Week

You talk about old Oysters, I am talking about the new ones. They have changed. Now they are modern fast bluewater cruising boats. The older ones, as you say, where heavier and slower.

But that is what I was talking about: Oysters are changing on the right direction and it is one of the reasons they are increasingly popular.

[smackdaddy]

Oohh, even Hinckley...

Dodson Boatyard of Stonington, CT contacted Burke Design on separate occasions during the winter of 2001/2002, for assistance with rudder and hull repairs to Hinckley 59 hull #1, Cetacea.

Inspection of Cetacea's rudder revealed evidence of several prior repairs. It was learned that this particular rudder had a history of leaking and structural problems, and that the rudder design had been changed by the builder for later yachts of her type.

[smackdaddy]

Well, just for kicks I checked my rudder stock, quadrant, and top bearing. Nothing horrible from what I could see. The stops are rusty - so I need some ospho and paint on those. But overall, it looked okay.

Quick question - how taught should the steering cables be?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Well, just for kicks I checked my rudder stock, quadrant, and top bearing. Nothing horrible from what I could see. The stops are rusty - so I need some ospho and paint on those. But overall, it looked okay.

Quick question - how taught should the steering cables be?

Not to tight not to loose, tight by hand and later with a key, a small slack is normal!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Not to tight not to loose, tight by hand and later with a key, a small slack is normal!

Hey Neil -- I was always advised, maybe incorrectly, to try & take all the slack out of my steering cables. But mine may be different from Smack's. It's an Edson "pull-pull" chain to cable set-up. 47' center cockpit so more sheaves, more cable length, etc. going back to the quadrant.

Also, Edson has a rather short service interval for replacing the chain/cable, and it's expensive! I keep everything properly lubed, etc., but wondering if you've seen many failures. Apparently they like to fail right at the chain/cable fitting under the pedestal. Also probably a good thing to inspect, but a bit of a PITA since you have to unhook from the quadrant & pull the chain up through the pedestal. Maybe not so bad . . . .

Thanks!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Not to tight not to loose, tight by hand and later with a key, a small slack is normal!

Cool. Thanks Neil.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Exile

Hey Neil -- I was always advised, maybe incorrectly, to try & take all the slack out of my steering cables. But mine may be different from Smack's. It's an Edson "pull-pull" chain to cable set-up. 47' center cockpit so more sheaves, more cable length, etc. going back to the quadrant.

Also, Edson has a rather short service interval for replacing the chain/cable, and it's expensive! I keep everything properly lubed, etc., but wondering if you've seen many failures. Apparently they like to fail right at the chain/cable fitting under the pedestal. Also probably a good thing to inspect, but a bit of a PITA since you have to unhook from the quadrant & pull the chain up through the pedestal. Maybe not so bad . . . .

Thanks!

In many rudder quadrants i found it to tight, and to tight put a lot of wear and tear in the wires, pulleys, chain, etc...

So, this is what i do when i deal with wires and quadrants,
Loose the lock nuts on the wire adjusters at the steering quadrant,

Slack the wires , push the cable end though the quadrant by hand, as much as posible with your hand.

Tight the adjusting nut as far as posible with your hand , do the same in the oposite side by hand to, and retight the locking nuts .

[neilpride]

Yes what i see is something like a warning if you have tight wires in a Edson system with Edson pulleys to, Edson in the past use bronze pins in the pulleys, check if yours is bronze, those pins with the years wear so bad that i see pins with just a couple of mm of material left, i let you figúrate if a pulley get loose from the bracket, right now they use SS , but even with SS i see some wear to, so check your pin pulleys as another maintenace task in the steering system...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by neilpride

In many rudder quadrants i found it to tight, and to tight put a lot of wear and tear in the wires, pulleys, chain, etc...

So, this is what i do when i deal with wires and quadrants,
Loose the lock nuts on the wire adjusters at the steering quadrant,

Slack the wires , push the cable end though the quadrant by hand, as much as posible with your hand.

Tight the adjusting nut as far as posible with your hand , do the same in the oposite side by hand to, and retight the locking nuts .

OK, thanks. That's what I've been doing, i.e. hand tighten only. It seems to result in almost no play in the wheel so hopefully that's not too tight. The system generally feels very smooth.

I think Edson's short replacement interval for the chain/cable is based on hard usage in the tropics, for e.g. charter boat service. It's almost a 'boat-buck' to replace! I think I'll just keep an eye on it for now unless I see some unusual wear.

Thanks again for the advice!

[neilpride]

Wires in the quadrant last for a while if they have proper tensión and a good alignment with the pulleys , at least you can get 10 years , i use the clasic 7x19 ss wire, it have good flexible propertys and when is close to the life span usually you see a small single wire broken...time to replace , they are cheap and strong for the aplication...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Yes what i see is something like a warning if you have tight wires in a Edson system with Edson pulleys to, Edson in the past use bronze pins in the pulleys, check if yours is bronze, those pins with the years wear so bad that i see pins with just a couple of mm of material left, i let you figúrate if a pulley get loose from the bracket, right now they use SS , but even with SS i see some wear to, so check your pin pulleys as another maintenace task in the steering system...

Oh, ok, another good tip. I do believe my pulley pins are bronze. No bearings or bushings as far as I can tell but haven't disassembled them. The pulleys do have some play in them but I figured part of this may be by design. Sounds like a good idea to take them apart and check it out.

Thanks again!

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Exile

Oh, ok, another good tip. I do believe my pulley pins are bronze. No bearings or bushings as far as I can tell but haven't disassembled them. The pulleys do have some play in them but I figured part of this may be by design. Sounds like a good idea to take them apart and check it out.

Thanks again!

I agree, if you feel in doubt , pull the pin and check it, is not so dificult, if your pins looks bad, get SS instead, last longer and usually dont wear so bad compared with bronze .

[neilpride]

This is what i mean!!