Rethinking 155% Genoa

[Jammer]

My boat came with a pair of 155% Genoas, both in good but perhaps not race-worthy condition. They've been out on the table at the sailmaker's and I sail with the better of the two. It's on a Harken furler. The fully battened mainsail is in near-new condition on a furling boom, and is cut with so much roach that I have to reef slightly in light airs so the battens don't catch on the backstay.


The boat has a masthead rig, 155% is huge.


I am effectively singlehanded.



There are two (predictable) shortcomings with the rig.


The first is that upwind performance in moderate and stronger winds suffers due to the poor shape of the rolled-up jib.



The second is that light airs performance downwind is poor. The weight of the Genoa is such that it tends to collapse. I have not been using the pole because until recently I have not had a topping lift rigged; perhaps that will help somewhat. Without a pole the boat will not sail wing and wing. The main is not helpful when sailing downwind; for lengthy downwind runs I furl it.


I will run some experiments with the pole next spring.


I am thinking of replacing the 155% with something smaller (115%?), adding an asymmetric spinnaker with a sock (or possibly its own furler), and removing the pole entirely.


Thoughts? Advice?

[bergius]

We have a 150% Genoa, and that does give a lot of useful drive in light airs. But we rarely sail with it furled (sometimes downwind when poled out, where sail shape doesn't matter).

For heavier winds or short tacking, we have a nice small staysail on a removable inner forestay.

Now that we have two seasons of experience with this combo, I'm pretty happy with it. A slightly smaller Genoa might make life easier when wind suddenly picks up, so maybe the next iteration will be only a 130% or something. But this one is great up to 16kt.

Genoa:


Staysail:

[rognvald]

We're downsizing from a 115% genoa to a 100% jib with a dedicated reef for Winter sailing in the Tropics. My boat is a bit tender and we usually reef at about 16 knots plus but lose sail shape as the wind increases. A smaller jib is ideal for stronger Winter winds 15-25 mph and is easier to set on a pole. As Spring approaches with lighter winds, we pull out the 115 genoa.
Rognvald

[rslifkin]

Personally I'd keep the big Genoa, but also get a smaller one (probably in the 110 - 120 range). The smaller one lives on the furler most of the time and you can use a spinnaker to help performance at or below a beam reach in light air.

The time to put the 155 back on is before departure when you know the wind is going to be light and you'll need to go upwind, although a lighter big Genoa would be better both for performance in light air and for ease of handling. And in really light air downwind you can pole it out opposite the spinnaker. A friend and I did that with great success on his boat this summer, sym spinnaker tacked to the bow (not ideal) and a poled out 150 on the other side. You could sail about 20 degrees either side of dead downwind without issue (maybe a little more with the Genoa to windward) and we were making better then half the wind speed in light air (I remember seeing about 4.5 kts in about 8 kts of true wind). The boat steered great in that config as well.

It should be possible to pole the Genoa out without a topping lift for the pole though.

[Gudgeon]

You do loose performance with a roller furling head sail. The sail maker can put some foam in the luff to help with shape when furled. If you have sombrella on the leach it also affects sail shape and weight. What is the weight of the cloth for the sails? What is your normal wind speed. Up wind performace is a balance between the Main and head sails. Does you boat have adjustable jib cars? Is the cloth just to heavy for the wind conditions when going sown wind. I would get your sail maker to go out sailing with you. I run a 135% genoa cloth weight 8 oz and a the main is 9.50 on a T4400. The boat performs well down to about 7 or 8 kts.

[gonesail]

I would bite the bullet and go with a 100% blade jib. or 120%. so much better for single handing.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

[...lots of good advice...]

It should be possible to pole the Genoa out without a topping lift for the pole though.

Possible, yes. Given that I sail on Lake Superior, where winds that come up from nowhere are the stuff of legend, and am effectively singlehanded, I want to maintain the ability to roll up the headsail quickly and without leaving the helm.

[Donnybrook]

I had a 155 on my Catalina 34 for many years before switching to a 135 and won't go back. For cruising, I don't feel I lost much in light air as I'd probably motor sail or use the cruising chute if wind was light. It's much easier to tack and furl, especially single handed.

In theory, best mix would be a 155 with a smaller sail on an inner forestay but it doesn't make sense for me to add at this point.

Talk to your local sailmaker about what they recommend where you sail

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by gonesail

I would bite the bullet and go with a 100% blade jib. or 120%. so much better for single handing.

Yes that is what I have, 108% furling gib, following advice from the sail maker. It rarely is underpowered, and since I cruise, the speeds achieved are quite good really.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Gudgeon

You do loose performance with a roller furling head sail. The sail maker can put some foam in the luff to help with shape when furled. If you have sombrella on the leach it also affects sail shape and weight. What is the weight of the cloth for the sails?

I'm not sure but they are of fairly heavy construction.

What is your normal wind speed. Up wind performace is a balance between the Main and head sails.

I'm on Lake Superior, winds vary. Anywhere from 2 to 25 knots with 6-15 being typical. If it's more than that (rare) usually there are 5-8 foot short choppy confused seas and we stay somewhere protected.

Does you boat have adjustable jib cars? Is the cloth just to heavy for the wind conditions when going sown wind. I would get your sail maker to go out sailing with you. I run a 135% genoa cloth weight 8 oz and a the main is 9.50 on a T4400. The boat performs well down to about 7 or 8 kts.

Good to know. I suppose I could weigh one of the sails and calculate the area to determine approximate weight. I believe the main uses lighter cloth.



There are adjustable jib cars, yes. We have an inside track that has a wide adjustment range and also T-track on the toerails that we use when off the wind.

[JPA Cate]

Our first "Insatiable" came with two 165% genoas, one light, one heavy (so heavy I had to use the topping lift to lift it up from below decks). When we left to go cruising, we had a 135 for the biggest one, this in spite of having a low aspect ratio main.

I think talking with your sailmaker about how you like to use the boat and asking his advice would be your best option.

fwiw, we do often use the main, reefed to the #2 reef, which adequately flattens it, to roll damp, going downwind in the ocean. It isn't for drive, it's way over-trimmed, but it eases the rolling motion when flying two headsails (larger one poled out to windward, smaller one just held out by the breeze). Sorry, but I don't really have a clue what downwind sailing in the Great Lakes is like, so don't know if the technique is readily applicable to you.

[rognvald]

"Sorry, but I don't really have a clue what downwind sailing in the Great Lakes is like, so don't know if the technique is readily applicable to you." JPA Cate

Hi, JP,
We spent 39 years sailing Lake Michigan while having another bigger Winter boat in Florida for ten of those years from '95-2005. Downwind sailing in the Great Lakes cannot be compared to ocean sailing since the wind can clock many times during a day. Changeability is the soup du jour. A moderate furling sail that can be reefed would be the best choice such as a 115 with a deep reef point although our Lake Michigan boat had hank on sails with a cruising spinnaker, 130, 115, 100, and a storm trysail. I still miss that little boat and its simplicity.
Cheers, Rognvald

[Don C L]

So as nice as a big genoa is for light air, I'd have to agree to go with a smaller furling headsail, probably a 120 or 130, for your boat given that you do need better shape when it is partially furled and you have strong winds that come up quickly. If it was hanked on I'd probably keep the 155.
Where I am I can start out in the morning with typically flat calm conditions but by the afternoon it is usually 15-20 kts or more, so as a matter of convenience I often just start out with the working jib and motor out until the wind is up enough to match the jib, which is usually pretty quick and that is for close-hauled and close reaching. For running/broad reaching home I'll pull out the big genoa, (but I have hank-on headsails.)
I like your idea of an assymetrical spinnaker, with a sock, for light air downwind, but I think a gennaker or drifter might be easier and more versatile, no?
Here's a video of some folks with a drifter that's not hanked on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AX8TD-jjSQ

[malbert73]

jammer- you have a Tartan right?
155% is for racing but not great for cruising
My Tartan 40 came with a 135% and it was perfect. I replaced it (old one on its last legs) with another 135%
Upwind great. 6++ knots in 8 knots true.
Downwind poled out and fine.
I wouldn’t do a 155 unless PHRF racing was your primary goal

[SailingHarmonie]

There is no simple answer here. What works on one boat is totally inappropriate for another.

We sail a 52 foot ketch with a 160% genoa with a foam luff pad. it works for really well in any winds we have ever sailed in over the last 9 years and 60,000 miles. But that is THIS boat. Other boats will be way over powered by a headsail of this size.

A well designed foam luff will make a HUGE difference in the performance of the sail while prtailly reefed.An unpadded luff is a hot mess as the sail is furled if you want ot make any upwind progress at all.