Religious Commercial or Political Personal Signal Flags at Marina slip

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

You can’t limit my free speech in a public space, think there are tons on caselaw on that one.

And even if there wasn’t, too many gave too much to hand my rights over, basically bow to, a mayor...which is like one step up from a PTA president or something lol

Originally Posted by winschwab

What about restrictring SIZE? I live across from an offending marina. I like to get along with my neighbors, and don't intend to do anything about it, but I wish there was a uniform policy against those monster flags waving in my face-WAY larger than any American flag flown on any of the boats.

Restrictions as to number of poles, size of poles, size of flags and number of flags per pole.


Diana Beach Florida:

https://library.municode.com/fl/dani...E_S505-150FLFL


Sec. 505-150. - Flagpoles and flags.

(A)Flagpoles and flags shall be permitted in all districts subject to all applicable provisions of the code.
Flagpoles in any residential district shall not exceed a maximum height of twenty (20) feet above grade. In all other zoning districts, the maximum height of a flagpole shall be the maximum structure height for the district in which the flagpole is located or forty (40) feet, whichever is less.

(B)Flagpoles shall not be placed on top of buildings or ancillary structures such as (but not limited to) light poles. Flags shall not be draped or folded over the sides of buildings, nor shall they be tied to the exterior of any building or window.

(C)The maximum dimensions of any flag shall be proportional to the flagpole height. The hoist side of the flag shall not exceed twenty (20) percent of the vertical height of the pole. In addition, flags are subject to the following dimensional limitations:

Maximum Flag Size by Pole Height

Pole Height: Maximum Flag Size

Up to twenty-five (25) feet: Up to twenty-five (25) total square feet

Greater than twenty-five (25) feet not exceeding forty (40) feet: Up to forty (40) total square feet


(D)Other than single-family residential lots which shall be permitted one (1) flagpole per lot, each lot shall be allowed a maximum of three (3) flagpoles. A maximum of two (2) flags shall be allowed per flagpole. References to the number of flags and flagpoles and flag dimensions refer to both vertical flagpoles and mast-arm flagpoles (for example, staffs extending at an angle from a building). On United States and Florida holidays, there shall be no maximum flag size or number or other limitations on manner of display. This section shall not prevent marinas or boat docking facilities holding valid business tax receipts from displaying additional flags for navigation purposes as necessary.

[JPA Cate]

I think Tellie's right on this one. Our *feelings* are less important than the First Amendment's protection.

Therefore, I would think that if the OP wants to do something about flags at his club, it simply be a size limitation, for all flags.

Then you let the people declare themselves with smaller flags.

Sorry, I forget who suggested looking up the Gadsden flag. Wow, that has certainly changed significance since I was a kid! Here's a link: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...e-gadsden-flag So, it is interesting to me how symbols change over time. Rainbows had different meanings, too. It is that people take up things and put them down.

I have seen the Confederate flag displayed in Australia, and have not really enquired as to it's significance here.

Ann

[Captn_Black]

If I lived there I would be happy if all political and religious flags onboard ships were banned. If it falls into those categories, it doesn't meet the criteria of a "personal signal flag".

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

You can’t limit my free speech in a public space, think there are tons on caselaw on that one.

I'm a strong supporter of the first amendment, and I totally get where you're coming from. But I find myself struggling to see it as absolutely as that.

Society (through municipal, state and federal law) CAN and does limit our free speech in a public space. I listed a number of public spaces where this is true in an earlier post.

But for simplicity, let's go back to that old trope: yelling "fire" in a packed theater. You most certainly will be charged with a crime for that.

Since it's obvious the right to free speech isn't absolute, what are the constraints? Let's look at the text:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Note that it's Congress (the federal government) which shall make no law. Most states have similar provisions. So that's one limitation.

Then, note that it only mentions laws prohibiting free speech. Nothing says the government can't restrict speech to certain places and times where it's appropriate. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there is case law on this. As long as the government allows a reasonable time and space for free speech, it can specify that there are other times and places where it's not allowed. Those public spaces I mentioned like libraries, courthouses, town halls, etc.

I stand in awe at the forethought of the framers of the Constitution (and Bill of Rights.) They really thought this through. And look at the other provisions, like free assembly and airing grievances. Those issues are literally in today's headlines.

I wish all laws could be as short and succinct as this. Not thousands of pages full of loopholes and gifts to special interests.

[Captn_Black]

"Private signal or owner’s flag
This is the yachtsman’s equivalent to the house flag, but not
often seen. Another name for it is the owner’s flag. It can be any
reasonable shape but is usually rectangular or nearly square.
In the US the swallowtail shape is traditional. Any design that
does not clash with any existing flags is acceptable but initials
are not usually used." - Reeds Maritime Flag Handbook

I think of this as more of a case of nautical etiquette than "free speech", while using political or religious symbology might not be expressly forbidden, I think it is in poor taste and pushing the definition. The flag still has to be unique, so any religious or political emblems would have to be incorporated into an original design.

Personally, I have a traditional view on flag use, and usually avoid associating with anyone that flies a jolly roger or such as their house flag. In the EU I have yet to see anyone use political or religious flags, but I would feel the same about that - unless they were incorporated into an original design, which would be on par with a traditional coat-of-arms in my opinion.

[Pegu Club]

Unless your club has a no overt religion or politics policy your stuck with taking it down and dumpstering it when the owner is not around. Just get someone to take them to lunch while you remove it, there is plausible deniability that way.

Fair winds,

[Captn_Black]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Unless your club has a no overt religion or politics policy your stuck with taking it down and dumpstering it when the owner is not around. Just get someone to take them to lunch while you remove it, there is plausible deniability that way.

Fair winds,

Techinically they shouldn't be flying it when the owner isn't aboard anyway. Enforcing that and the fact that the flags should be unique would soon bring an end to the problem I think, and you can cite nautical etiquette/tradition as your reason without causing too much offence.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by dergon

Good morning, all -

I wanted to bounce a protocol/ etiquette question around the forum and try to get some guidance.


At our local marina a few vessels have taking to flying overtly religious and/or political personal signal flags.

Some of the membership have expressed concerns over the content. Other are concerned because the prominence of some of the flags are so great that they are seen from the nearby road and from the water and could give the impression of endorsement.

Our conduct rules only address "lewd" or "inappropriate" flag flying.

Without wanting to get too much in to the opinion side on this, I was hoping that people might be able to link or direct me to some other marinas / clubs policies on the issue so I can see how other places handle this if it comes up.

Thanks for the help.

dergon

So give us some details on the flags you want to eliminate. That can change the tone of the discussion. The flags of many countries include overt religious symbols. "Lewd" or 'inappropriate" is very vague. If you start editorializing in this area... Some might find a rainbow flag "lewd" because it's a symbol of behavior they find lewd...who gets to decide what is "lewd" or "inappropriate"? It gets really messy and complicated to define.

A private owner gets more latitude regarding the 1st Amendment (within limits) but even then, it can become a PR nightmare. I've seen news stories about HOAs prohibiting an American Vet from flying the Stars & Stripes...doesn't come across well in the news story.

Usually the response that works is one of two things:
- Get over yourself and let idiots be idiots. Usually, they lose interest if you don't engage with them.
- Ban everything.

Of course in a boating situation, you may have to include an exception that all flags are banned except those required by local maritime law. But if you do this, you have to enforce it on everyone and do it in a timely manner.

[Bawlmer]

Originally Posted by Van Der Beek

Have a comply or goodbye policy.

Meaning.
No rainbow flags, no swastikas, no pirate flags, no crusader flags, no religious flags.

Nation flags and such no problem.


If you have no such policy make on.



There you go.

Gee. And I thought pirate flags were kinda cool. Definitely not political or provocative.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

I don’t believe it’s illegal in the states.
And that nasty symbol was taken from India if memory serves me correctly.

The symbol itself is not nasty..
The clockwise swastika in fact symbolises the sun and represents good luck and prosperity in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain culture..
The Nazi's would have done better to adopt the anti clockwise symbol which represents darkness and the Tantric aspects of Kali the Goddess of Death.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The symbol itself is not nasty..

The clockwise swastika in fact symbolises the sun and represents good luck and prosperity in Hindu, Buddhist and Jain culture..

The Nazi's would have done better to adopt the anti clockwise symbol which represents darkness and the Tantric aspects of Kali the Goddess of Death.

The use by nazis is what I was naming as nasty not the actual symbol itself sorry for the lack of clarity

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Bawlmer

Gee. And I thought pirate flags were kinda cool. Definitely not political or provocative.

Well, if you had had a friend or family member or just an acquaintance murdered by a defacto pirate, you might not feel this way. And that is the case for some of us here on CF.

Jim

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

The use by nazis is what I was naming as nasty not the actual symbol itself sorry for the lack of clarity

Naah.!!! Just me being pedantic..

[na232]

Why don't you just look the other way. It has gotten where EVERYTHING offends somebody. When you start going after others, remember, they may come after you next. Just food for thought.

[jlcarreiro]

How about a limit on the size of such flag?