Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

I appreciate the constructive posts here. But I have to say, the OP knows what he did wrong and what he did right. Our little inputs are great, but these nuggets of wisdom is for the the ones who have yet to be thrown into that situation. I guaranty you, he has replayed and reworked the whole trip in his mind a million times by now, and knows better than anyone here what to do next time. Experience
Just saying.

I hope he is able to get his boat afloat and move on from this experience.

Yes, unfortunately for him it is about the rest of us now. I do really feel for the OP. Even if *we* did not encourage him to take an ill-prepared trip, I know that others have done that with me. Fortunately for me (and my boat) I didn't do it.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

They're on the paper charts, that are off datum, the admiralty survey is old. The area cruising guide is accurate though.

What does this mean -- "They're on the paper charts, that are off datum..."

I do use my chart plotter, but not without studying the paper charts first, and not exclusively at all -- and after seeing the Florida Cruising Guide I would really hope there was such a thing for any place I went.

It might just me, because I'm a "big picture" person, but I always tell newer sailors to get the paper charts and study them. It really saved my cookies one day, because I knew where we were and just how far the "lee shore" (very shallow water) extended at that particular spot. I didn't have a chart plotter at the time, but I know that the chart plotter does not give you the big picture.

I *especially* would not want to depend on a chart plotter in difficult circumstances even if power supply wasn't a problem -- for that reason.

[Paul Elliott]

"Off datum" means that the latitude/longitude shown on the paper chart is not exactly correct. The electronic chart will show the channel, rock, lighthouse, etc, as being located at the published lat/lon, when in fact, they are at a different location. This can be due to inaccuracies in the original survey, or to differences in the GPS datum (mathematical model of the Earth's surface). The original surveys, some done by Captain Cook, are usually pretty accurate as far as latitude, but the longitude can be up to a couple of miles off.

The paper charts are still very useful, but you can't use GPS to orient them. You need to use visual landmarks or radar.

[Jim Cate]

Well, since the discussion was relative to range marks, it does not matter if the datum registration is correct or not. One follows the range as observed by eyeball, not by what is on chart or VDU. Actually, once withing sight of the range markers no chart of any sort is required to get through a pass. Once through the pass, the chart again becomes useful and datum errors important if further piloting is needed.

Cheers,

Jim

[Wrong]

"Wrong-
Since neither of you put any subjective context on Gorilla tape, it is meaningless to hear you call it "good". There's a half billion people who call McBurgers "good" but ask them how it compares to a proper home made or pub burger, and then you get context. Gorilla tape? Sure, they've convinced me they put their brand on good stuff. Gaffers' tape has always been pretty much brandless. And then there's 3M, who also make "clear duct tape". No context, just a subjective like? Eh, doesn't say much for it.[/QUOTE]"

Makes no difference to me if you use Gorilla tape or not. You need more contextual information use your favourite search engine. Not here to satisfy you standards, just to share my experience. Take what I say at face value or not. Rely only on what you call contextual information and ignore mine and others first hand experience using the tape if you want. Don't care what you think or do.

[nimblemotors]

...what his abilities were at this stage...

'Abilities' are not so much an issue. Running out of electrical power, being told no rescue is possible, USCG tells you to abandon ship, you have the only help available right there,
and then he leaves you alone to fend for yourself..he got scared and changed his mind and did what the USCG advised him to. So then I assume Eric and others think the USCG is wrong too? Their advice was bad? Better safe than sorry...or dead.

The problem as I see it was lack of backups. The engine was the only source for electrical power.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

"Off datum" means that the latitude/longitude shown on the paper chart is not exactly correct. The electronic chart will show the channel, rock, lighthouse, etc, as being located at the published lat/lon, when in fact, they are at a different location. This can be due to inaccuracies in the original survey, or to differences in the GPS datum (mathematical model of the Earth's surface). The original surveys, some done by Captain Cook, are usually pretty accurate as far as latitude, but the longitude can be up to a couple of miles off.

The paper charts are still very useful, but you can't use GPS to orient them. You need to use visual landmarks or radar.

Yes, I know you can't use GPS to interpret your paper charts.

I use the paper charts to interpret the GPS. When in doubt I go back to the paper chart.

So what I was really asking was if the PAPER chart has the range markers accurately placed. If it does, no problems. If the paper chart is wrong then it's going to be a lot trickier for a newer sailor.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, since the discussion was relative to range marks, it does not matter if the datum registration is correct or not. One follows the range as observed by eyeball, not by what is on chart or VDU. Actually, once withing sight of the range markers no chart of any sort is required to get through a pass. Once through the pass, the chart again becomes useful and datum errors important if further piloting is needed.

Cheers,

Jim

What I'm trying to get at is still being missed. I understand that the whole point of range markers is to have a visual guide. Really, that's pretty basic.

However, if they are not accurately placed ON THE CHART, one won't know where to look at them. In some places, there's an awful lot of clutter on shore, and it really helps to know where you should expect to see something.

This is why I'm asking -- are the range markers accurately plotted on the PAPER chart?

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, since the discussion was relative to range marks, it does not matter if the datum registration is correct or not. One follows the range as observed by eyeball, not by what is on chart or VDU. Actually, once withing sight of the range markers no chart of any sort is required to get through a pass. Once through the pass, the chart again becomes useful and datum errors important if further piloting is needed.

Cheers,

Jim

Thought I repost it for people who don't get ranges.....

[boatman61]

Just about all the electronic charts are copies of the paper ones... no ones been out there to make new surveys just for Garmin etc...

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

In addition, it's an abandoned boat. "The locals" (I don't think any of us would fly in to do it) are entitled to salvage what they can.

I'm sorry for going pack a couple of pages, but I just couldn't let this stand. It is flat out wrong, and we all need to know it. An abandoned, wrecked, or sunk boat is still owned, either by the owner at time of loss or his/her insurance company if the claim was paid. (Some countries/states lay claim to sunken vessels as well, which is nothing less than legalized theft, but that is another matter.) Anyone removing anything from a wreck for their own benefit is nothing less than a thief.

On the often misunderstood concept of salvage, a salvor is one who preserves the value of the ship/cargo FOR THE OWNER, and is then entitled to salvage fees based on the value preserved and the effort, cost, and risk involved in that salvage. If agreement can't be reached on that amount ultimately the claim will be decided by an admiralty court (assuming that Lloyd's arbitration hasn't been agreed). So if a fishing boat had come out from Roatan and towed Serenity to harbor he would have been entitled to salvage, not just for labor, unless something else had been agreed. If the abandoned boat had been encountered and towed to port and protected from looters, the one who did that could claim salvage. And with the boat on the reef, anyone removing valuables and delivering them to the owner is entitled to salvage. The rest are just thieves, pure and simple. Through the centuries thieves have often hidden behind a claim of salvage - let's not continue that.

Greg

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Just about all the electronic charts are copies of the paper ones... no ones been out there to make new surveys just for Garmin etc...

Almost all charts are electronic and the paper charts are just print outs of those electronic charts. It's only some 3rd world stuff that is still in paper source.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I'm sorry for going pack a couple of pages, but I just couldn't let this stand. It is flat out wrong, and we all need to know it. An abandoned, wrecked, or sunk boat is still owned, either by the owner at time of loss or his/her insurance company if the claim was paid. (Some countries/states lay claim to sunken vessels as well, which is nothing less than legalized theft, but that is another matter.) Anyone removing anything from a wreck for their own benefit is nothing less than a thief.

On the often misunderstood concept of salvage, a salvor is one who preserves the value of the ship/cargo FOR THE OWNER, and is then entitled to salvage fees based on the value preserved and the effort, cost, and risk involved in that salvage. If agreement can't be reached on that amount ultimately the claim will be decided by an admiralty court (assuming that Lloyd's arbitration hasn't been agreed). So if a fishing boat had come out from Roatan and towed Serenity to harbor he would have been entitled to salvage, not just for labor, unless something else had been agreed. If the abandoned boat had been encountered and towed to port and protected from looters, the one who did that could claim salvage. And with the boat on the reef, anyone removing valuables and delivering them to the owner is entitled to salvage. The rest are just thieves, pure and simple. Through the centuries thieves have often hidden behind a claim of salvage - let's not continue that.

Greg

good post......in the business and it's a really misunderstood concept. Leaving a vessel for rescue isn't even abandonment...not till the owner says it's abandoned or a maritime court declares it abandoned.

[CarinaPDX]

The excellent Startron recommended earlier dissolves algae, thus keeping things liquid and flowing. It is the use of biocide that is the problem: put it in your tank and the algae will all die and sink to the bottom, forming a nasty sludge (which is also corrosive). Simply put: don't use biocide.

On the range issue, ranges are often relocated in order to indicate the current channel. ALL charts, paper or electronic, must only be used for locating the range. The range itself must be trusted, even if it has been moved since the chart production.

Greg

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I'm sorry for going pack a couple of pages, but I just couldn't let this stand. It is flat out wrong, and we all need to know it. An abandoned, wrecked, or sunk boat is still owned, either by the owner at time of loss or his/her insurance company if the claim was paid. (Some countries/states lay claim to sunken vessels as well, which is nothing less than legalized theft, but that is another matter.) Anyone removing anything from a wreck for their own benefit is nothing less than a thief.

On the often misunderstood concept of salvage, a salvor is one who preserves the value of the ship/cargo FOR THE OWNER, and is then entitled to salvage fees based on the value preserved and the effort, cost, and risk involved in that salvage. If agreement can't be reached on that amount ultimately the claim will be decided by an admiralty court (assuming that Lloyd's arbitration hasn't been agreed). So if a fishing boat had come out from Roatan and towed Serenity to harbor he would have been entitled to salvage, not just for labor, unless something else had been agreed. If the abandoned boat had been encountered and towed to port and protected from looters, the one who did that could claim salvage. And with the boat on the reef, anyone removing valuables and delivering them to the owner is entitled to salvage. The rest are just thieves, pure and simple. Through the centuries thieves have often hidden behind a claim of salvage - let's not continue that.

Greg

Greg, thank you for this post. I was going to attempt the same thoughts, but you have done it better than I would have.

Well done!

Jim