Professional Registration Information referral?

[sepharad]

It has been a real awakening for me, realizing that, there is little uniformity in the EU. Clearly I was very ignorant. It may be required, if the boat is flagged Portuguese? Their answer to me was not that they wont write a policy, they will cover me for about 280 Euros a year, but that their underwriters are required to write in Portuguese to comply with Portuguese registered boats.

I had the delusional belief that EU meant that there was uniformity of practice across all borders. Wow was I way off base.

I am going to the harbor police today to see if they have registration information, here in Viana. I can find no instruction online, in either Portuguese or English, so far.

Every day is an adventure

[boatman61]

Yes.. A lot of people share that delusion sadly.. thats why Brexit has become such a farce.

[George DuBose]

I imported my US-flagged US-built yacht into The Netherlands. I paid VAT to the Dutch. I had my Post-Construction Assessment survey done in The Netherlands. I still fly the US flag, which attracts various Douane and Marchausee like flies, but as The Netherlands has no property tax on boats or registration costs, I feel I have somewhat of a bargain berthing in NL.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by sepharad

It has been a real awakening for me, realizing that, there is little uniformity in the EU. Clearly I was very ignorant. It may be required, if the boat is flagged Portuguese? Their answer to me was not that they wont write a policy, they will cover me for about 280 Euros a year, but that their underwriters are required to write in Portuguese to comply with Portuguese registered boats.

I had the delusional belief that EU meant that there was uniformity of practice across all borders. Wow was I way off base.

I am going to the harbor police today to see if they have registration information, here in Viana. I can find no instruction online, in either Portuguese or English, so far.

Every day is an adventure

Ha, so you got to thinking that maybe EU / You could register your vessel with the flag below? Sorry, the community never got that Unionized.

Delusion, perhaps, as to uniformity of practice across border, well ditto as to your experience in multi-juridictionalism here in the 50 United States.

Remember: The US of America ARE, not the US of America IS.

The Nation's motto being E Pluribus Unum, [out of many, one] but in many instances it is more like E Unum Pluribus [out of the one to many] or perhaps that should be translated [out of the one too many].

Historical note: The Council of Europe gave the 1955 flag a symbolic description in the following terms:

"Against the blue sky of the Western world, the stars represent the peoples of Europe in a circle, a symbol of unity. Their number shall be invariably set at twelve, the symbol of completeness and perfection."

— Council of Europe. Paris, 7–9 December 1955

The official symbolic description adopted by the EU omits the reference to the "Western world". "West" being so relative to a reference point, the world being a sphere if you go West or East long enough you will circumnavigate.

The number of stars on the EU flag is fixed at twelve, representing "perfection and completeness" (in the original French: symbole de la perfection et de la plénitude). It is not related to the number of member states of the EU (although the EU happened to have 12 member states at the time of Maastricht Treaty). I suppose the matter of "perfection and completeness" is open to debate and difference of opinion.

Unlike the USA where a star is added to increase the spangling of the banner when a new State is admitted to the Union [it started with 13], in the EU they don't add [or subtract] a star with a change in the membership of the Union.

When the USA formed its Union, the stated purpose in the Constitution was a bit more modest - "to form a more perfect union", perfection it wasn't and certainly remains a work in progress; well at least striving for a more perfect union is a worthy aspiration and motivation.

[Dogscout]

I don't know if this will help you or not. perhaps there is a glimmer of information that will.

I am a US citizen that just bought a boat in Malta. To keep Maltese registration I need to have a Maltese tax Id. This can be accomplished by creating a company in Malta and then the company would own and register that boat. This is not good for me because a company has to meet many rules that a individual does not regarding safety equipment, insurance and cost of registration. I want to Document this boat with the USCG who say that I must have proof of it being de-registered from Malta. Malta will not deregister the boat without proof that it is register elsewhere. Catch 22.

In your case I doubt that the rules have been written yet regarding UK and EU cooperation and registration. Insurance companies don't know because everything is new and nobody wants to write insurance until the laws are final.

I hope it works out for you

[Rorzech]

Wow, What a sea of confusion out there. I registered my 31 foot boat online in about 15 minutes. I did my registration last night. All I needed was this information handy.
Length: 10 meters
Type :sail
Hull #
Hull: fibre glass
Original registration number
Name and address of previous owner
Picture of bill of sale with both our signatures
Picture of Driver's license
Picture of side view of boat in present condition
My name and address
Check the box declaring all info is true
Hit the submit button
Get instant print out of Temporary Registration good till Permanent Registration is issued in 5 days, by Email .
How easy is that ? Oh yeah,one more thing ,that's for Canadian's living in Canada, and it's all paid for by the tax payers.

[sepharad]

Thanks Rorzech,

Next Time I am a Canadian living in Canada, that will solve my problem.

I today confirmed that Portugal has registration hoops to jump through, including a tiered License requirement for coastal vs high seas skipper, An initial haul-out inspection requirement, a 10 year haul-out inspection requirement, and registration validity period based on age.

So Portugal is off the table.

The UK Registration, though readily available and reasonably priced, may become useless, the moment the UK parts company with the EU.

Back to the drawing board.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by sepharad

Thanks Rorzech,

Next Time I am a Canadian living in Canada, that will solve my problem.

I today confirmed that Portugal has registration hoops to jump through, including a tiered License requirement for coastal vs high seas skipper, An initial haul-out inspection requirement, a 10 year haul-out inspection requirement, and registration validity period based on age.

So Portugal is off the table.

The UK Registration, though readily available and reasonably priced, may become useless, the moment the UK parts company with the EU.

Back to the drawing board.

"I am a Portuguese citizen.
My boat is UK registered.
I can stay in the Schengen without limitation.
I don't know if my boat can, if it remains a UK flagged vessel.
I don't know IF I can maintain a UK flag, even if I want to, based on the documents I have found so far.
Portugal, who in 2018, moderated their registration requirements, apparently refuses to recognize Dutch 'light" documentation.
UK insurers refuse to insure Portuguese registered boats.
My VAT is paid and I have a UK form, confirming my paid status. But whether all EU member will honor it in the future, is unknown.

So whittling it down to which country is most appropriate, is not so simple."

. . .

"I am a Portuguese citizen.
The boat was built in the UK. And is registered there.
The boat berths in Denmark
"It" was the UK who will no longer be an EU member state.
I will remain a citizen of an EU state."


Well while you are at the drawing board, I suggest you write down answers to these questions.

What are your goals as to the choice of your flagging of your vessel?

What specific reason would you desire to choose between your [the vessel owner's] national registry and one of the flags of convenience?

I typically find it beneficial to first define one's goal set and then determine how best to achieve such, otherwise sometimes key issues of the why get lost in the haze of the how.



I remain unclear as to how the boat is register / flagged with the UK.

Which of the UK registries is your vessel registered?

The UK Small Ships Register (SSR) provides a simple form of non-title registration for eligible UK residents who own pleasure vessels that are less than 24 metres in overall length. Note that the SSR provides a non-title registry so if titling is a desired outcome for your vessel than perhaps the SSR is not a desired form of registry, again goes back to the goal and why questioning to which you need to ask yourself.

You are a citizen of Portugal. Are you a resident of the UK? If not a resident of the UK, what country are you a resident of? Note that in some countries, residency is a basis for being able to flag your vessel with that country, thus being a quasi-flag of convenience, other countries require citizenship.If not a resident of the UK [and being a citizen of Portugal and thus presumably not also a citizen of the UK], how is it that your vessel has a UK registry? The UK registry is not an open registry meaning the UK is not a flag of convenience.

Your vessel is berthed in Denmark, but do note where the boat is berthed does not impact which country it is flagged under. But where your boat is very likely will have implications as to taxation and also where your boat can go without it becoming an imported good. Note that the flag it bears will likely not have much determination of its post BREXIT tax status as it related to VAT.
The flag state of a merchant vessel is the jurisdiction under whose laws the vessel is registered or licensed, and is deemed the nationality of the vessel. A merchant vessel must be registered and can only be registered in one jurisdiction, but may change the register in which it is registered. The flag state has the authority and responsibility to enforce regulations over vessels registered under its flag, including those relating to inspection, certification, and issuance of safety and pollution prevention documents. As a ship operates under the laws of its flag state, these laws are applicable if the ship is involved in an admiralty case.

The recent CruisersForum thread regarding Brexit provides specific guidance from the UK government regarding the then stated policy of HMG and as to VAT between EU and UK post Brexit. The RYA is lobbying and keeping abreast of the VAT situation as it relates to Brexit. But Brexit is NOT a done deal, or may be a NO DEAL, or Who Knows What.

If EU VAT is of keen concern to you having a UK built boat with an apparently paid UK VAT status, then I suggest you keep current on the RYA websites guidance, the premier source of BREXIT and Yachting updates. Even a maritime lawyer probably will seek out knowledge from the RYA concerning your UK boat / UK VAT status vessel and the implications of BREXIT and your EU location of the boat [presently imported into Denmark by being berthed in Denmark].

Reference the RYA, latest newsletter release of April 11, 2019 just before the previous BREXIT DAY, but as the CruisersForum thread post said ". . . Afraid there will be many "latest news" until October . . . "
https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/e-...m_medium=email


There has been a lot of confusion expressed in this thread about the situation regarding yacht EU VAT status, so I have quoted the latest CA information based on information supplied by the EU Commission and UK HMRC. Important points I draw are:
It is only a 'UK boat' whatever that is but I read to be that owned by a UK Citizen which would lose EU VAT status if located in the UK on Brexit day. So any other non-UK boat would not lose EU VAT status for being in UK on Brexit day.
UK owned boats will not lose UK VAT status wherever they are on Brexit day.
The CA elsewhere, strongly advise UK boats to get a T2L which is an EU document issued by HMRC as proof of 'Union goods status' e.g. its EU VAT status before Brexit day (as presumably afterwards the UK will not be able to issue one). All EU countries must accept a properly endorsed T2L as evidence of status. The CA provides a lot of help and blank forms to members in completing it and ours came back stamped within a week from HMRC. Worth joining CA just for this! HMRC seem completely relaxed about this, no doubt they have bigger fish to fry.


Copied below is from post #80 of the linked CruisersForum thread: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-215859-6.html

Reference CruisersForum post #80 copied below:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-215859-6.html

Overview
Following Brexit, yacht cruisers in Europe will need to be much more aware of the VAT implications of their cruising activities. Once Brexit occurs – either on a "no-deal" Brexit or at the end of a transaction period -there will be separation of the UK and EU VAT regimes. Yacht cruisers sailing between the UK and the EU will then to be aware of and take account of these new VAT issues.
In addition yacht cruisers will need to be aware that Visa free stays in the Schengen Area will be limited to 90 days in ANY 180 day period and that if either a single trip or a combination of trips will be more than 90 days then an extended visa may be required BEFORE leaving home.
VAT on Vessels
The EU Approach
The EU Commission has stated that customs status of a UK boat will depend on its location on the Brexit day. If on the Brexit day a boat is located in an EU port or sails in EU territorial waters, it will keep its Union status and continue to be regarded as having VAT-paid status. If the boat is located in the UK on the Brexit day, its status will be that of a third-country boat when arriving in the territorial waters of the Union, i.e. it will be treated as non-Union goods. Following Brexit Customs controls for such UK boats will be the same as for boats coming from any other non-EU country.
Following Brexit, yachts without EU VAT-paid status will be able to visit the EU under a "Temporary Importation" scheme without paying VAT. In general, this allows non-EU yachts to sail in EU waters for up to 18 months (extendable up to 24 months if the yacht is laid up and not used), for private purposes, as long as the yacht is owned by a non-EU resident. The Temporary Importation scheme can be re-started by leaving EU waters (even for a few days).
The UK Approach
HMRC has stated that "UK owned boats will retain their UK VAT paid status whatever their location on the day the UK exits the EU".
HMRC has also said Returned Goods Relief (RGR) will be available to allow those resident in the UK to return with their belongings (including pleasure boats) to the UK without paying customs duty or VAT as long as the items have not been changed since their departure and the importer follows HMRC guidance. This requires that "the person responsible has evidence that the VAT was paid on the purchase of the boat in either the UK or the EU". There does not appear to be any time limit on the availability of this relief as long as the yacht is used for private purposes.
For yachts that are purchased post-Brexit "VAT accounted for in the UK would need to be shown in respect of vessels purchased after the date of the EU exit".

Also reference posts by Dockhead #92, 94, 95:

Particularly as to Returned Goods Relief process as it pertains to UK VAT if and when your boat is comes back to the UK after BREXIT occurs.

Being a Yank, we dealt with BREXIT more than two centuries ago, and we don't have VAT in the United States, but some States do have Sales or Use tax which triggers taxation of the boat purchase and import into a State.

As to BREXIT, the best strategy is highly personal and fact specific and of course, to be determined as to IF, When and How the UK will exit the EU, so there will be no guarantees as to any appropriate strategy.