Poland Flag - Non-eu resident , VAT ?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The T2L document is valid for 90 days from the date of issue. The SAD form may be supplemented with one or more supplementary forms, which will be an integral part of the T2L document.

Direct quote..



From another source..

Some controversy, but the answer is NO. The T2L is a shipping document covering goods in general shipped across the EU. So if a boat is going by road with a haulage company it will need a T2L which the haulage company will issue. However when you go with your boat it is a "means of transport" so does not need it.



The controversy is that some states are misinterpreting the rules - Portugal and Croatia as examples causing panic for some people. The latter is a peculiar case because there were a lot of non VAT paid boats there at the time of accession last year which qualified for "deemed VAT paid" and they demanded a T2L to demonstrate such boats were imported from the EU.



The RYA is trying to deal with the problem - but in reality it does not affect movements elsewhere in the EU and you are OK with your registration, Bill of Sale and VAT receipt - and even the last is not really necessary as it is rarely asked for in the states most British people visit.



As usual the RYA is as up to date as anywhere on such issues.



And the EU farce continues...

https://lorrendraaier.nl/legal/saili...document-saga/



Sailor beware...

Nothing to do with the EU merely a certain Portuguese women acting ultra vires

[TOM-ROLPH]

First question What is your Nationality
2nd Why don't you want to register it there?

I applaud you not wanting to pay VAT but you need to do more detailed research than getting unqualified answers here.

Maybe it's because I'm an ex cop but this all sounds a bit dodgy to me.

That said consider Malta, they speak English, don't ask too many questions and its warmer than Poland

[pyrrano]

US citizen here, bought a Austrian registered boat and registered it with Poland with no issues through https://yachtregistrationspoland.com .
Very easy process, PDF registration comes in a few days, plastic card in the mail in a couple of weeks.

In my understanding you only pay VAT if you're a EU citizen and you'll keep the boat there longer than 90 days. I could be wrong.

[goboatingnow]

Non EU resident can keep the boat for 18 months, EU residents have in effect no allowance and must pay vat immediately unless the intention is to export the boat. ( much paper work follows )

[double u]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Why not flag it in Poland. Many countries have long winded registration processes whereas Polands one one is very simple

surprise, surprise:
Austrian registration is quite simple...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by double u

surprise, surprise:

Austrian registration is quite simple...

Whatever works for the OP bit I would recommend a European flag rather then a U.K. one

[double u]

flag matters little, VAT paid or otherwise is what counts

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by double u

flag matters little, VAT paid or otherwise is what counts

PROOF of VAT paid is what counts..
Where this can be difficult is with a pre VAT EU boat. :rolleyes;

[goboatingnow]

For vat two things are key

1. The residency status of the owner

2. For U.K. boats whether the boat was in the EU before 1 Jan 2022, for other boats this is irrelevant and 1 is the primary issue

However if you are EU resident or using EU passport you generate less issues by having a EU flag registration. U.K. part 1 is not as useful post Brexit.

[GMS SRQ]

I have had some experience in this are because I have had my boat in the EU for ten years. First she was French flagged, the Belgian then UK and now Polish. I have an EU passport, but am not an EU resident.
As someone else said, your nationality, the boat's registration, length of time etc are all irrelevant to VAT status.
The question you have to answer, if asked, is: "Has VAT been paid on the vessel, or not?"
Seems simple enough but far from it since there are two distinct and separate ways of recording VAT payments.
The first is the "receipt" method. It is used in the UK and when you pay VAT on a new boat you are given a VAT receipt that you must keep forever.
The second, used by France and Italy (there may be others) is based on registration. Like the UK, you have to pay VAT on a new boat but rather than issuing a receipt, your register the vessel, which entitles you to fly the national flag. By definition, a French registered vessel is VAT paid.
If you ask a French official about a VAT receipt you will be met with puzzlement. Ask me how I know.
If you present a French registration to a UK official, the result will probably be the same.
Neither method is right or wrong but trying to reconcile them is virtually impossible. I discovered the chasm first hand, when it came to selling my boat. Was it VAT paid, or not? It depends on who you ask.
In my experience, it is highly unlikely that an EU vessel in EU waters will be asked about VAT. That is why I changed my flag to Polish, after Brexit. I did not want to be a non-EU vessel, in the EU. That was just my personal preference.
The VAT issue is far from cut-and-dried so, in my opinion, keeping the lowest profile possible, made the most sense.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by GMS SRQ

I have had some experience in this are because I have had my boat in the EU for ten years. First she was French flagged, the Belgian then UK and now Polish. I have an EU passport, but am not an EU resident.
As someone else said, your nationality, the boat's registration, length of time etc are all irrelevant to VAT status.
The question you have to answer, if asked, is: "Has VAT been paid on the vessel, or not?"
Seems simple enough but far from it since there are two distinct and separate ways of recording VAT payments.
The first is the "receipt" method. It is used in the UK and when you pay VAT on a new boat you are given a VAT receipt that you must keep forever.
The second, used by France and Italy (there may be others) is based on registration. Like the UK, you have to pay VAT on a new boat but rather than issuing a receipt, your register the vessel, which entitles you to fly the national flag. By definition, a French registered vessel is VAT paid.
If you ask a French official about a VAT receipt you will be met with puzzlement. Ask me how I know.
If you present a French registration to a UK official, the result will probably be the same.
Neither method is right or wrong but trying to reconcile them is virtually impossible. I discovered the chasm first hand, when it came to selling my boat. Was it VAT paid, or not? It depends on who you ask.
In my experience, it is highly unlikely that an EU vessel in EU waters will be asked about VAT. That is why I changed my flag to Polish, after Brexit. I did not want to be a non-EU vessel, in the EU. That was just my personal preference.
The VAT issue is far from cut-and-dried so, in my opinion, keeping the lowest profile possible, made the most sense.

A new boat sold in the EU by a originating dealer will most certainly have an invoice and that invoice will show vat.. registration is not in itself proof of vAt status. Eu vat law is harmonised and states the documents that are acceptable. As a person who bought and sold boats in France I know this for a fact. The same is true in Holland and Germany.

Note that French boats are that are legitimately non vat paid are registered on the French register , this includes things like school boats and boats wrapped up in French companies and also boats purchased under the now withdrawn French lease scheme.

Hence you are wrong in stating if you are on the French register you are vat paid.

Note vat receipts are not issued by “ officials “ they are issued by the vat registered seller by way of an invoice. Customs cannot issue vat receipts except in circumstances where the vat is paid directly to them ( as in an importation ) in all other cases the sales invoice is the legal document.

You are correct , that in the EU vat enforcement is not common , I have seen it in France and Portugal and recently in Greece ( vathy on itaki) butbthis is 3 incidences in 30 years.

You are also correct that’ an EU flagged boat will attract less attention or interest by the vat authorities. I immediately reregistered my uk part 1 purchase ( vat paid ) yacht into Irish registration exactly as per your reasoning

However because you are not a Eu resident , you have one drawback , in theory if you saio your boat outside the customs union waters , your boat is exported and you cannot make use of RGR ( returned goods relief ) to recover the vat status . The boat is technicality now not vat paid. However customs oversight of this is difficult and hence once you don’t trip yourself up , they won’t know you were out of union waters.

Hence in all cases EU vat law recognises the sales invoice from the original new sale as proof not registration, every boat owner who is buying a vat paid boat should ensure that original sales invoice is provided.

[goboatingnow]

By the way , what a Eu registration does help you with , is that even if the vat status is queried, the vat issue is with the country where the boat is based , because in a “ new means of transport “ vat is due in the country of destination not purchase. Hence Portugal cannot demand vat on a French boat unless it can prove the boat was exported from the Eu, ie countries can’t collect each other’s vat on physical goods. ( this is up for legislative change in the Eu )

[GMS SRQ]

GOBOATINGNOW's comments are very welcome since I don't have the same depth of experience that he has.
I came to the same conclusion he cites, that to be VAT safe you need the documentation when the boat was new. However if you are buying a 30 or 40 year old boat, that has had many owners, there is a high probability that the original documentation has been lost along the way. My understanding is that, despite the exceptions, it is not customary to issue a VAT receipt in France, the registration is normally accepted as evidence of VAT paid.
Standing back from the detail, it seems to me that if you have a VAT receipt, like in the UK, you are in the best position to claim "VAT paid". If the country where the boat was sold new does not normally issue receipts, like France, then you have to rely on the authorities accepting the registration as evidence of "VAT paid." If you have neither receipt nor registration, you will have difficulty proving the VAT status.
Does that make sense, to you, based on your experience?
Your next to last paragraph about RGR is interesting. Are you saying that if I sailed my Polish boat from Greece to Turkey that, on my return to the EU I would be asked for proof of VAT payment, because I am a not an EU resident?
That seems to relate to your "French boat in Portugal example". In that case, lets say the French (resident) owner stopped in Gibraltar on the way to Portugal. In theory, could that be seen as "exporting" the boat and so, when it arrives in Portugal, the Portuguese could challenge the boat's VAT status?
I can see why I might have the problem with Greece/Turkey because I am non-resident but it looks like the problem could occur whenever anyone, resident or not, enters the EU from a non-EU location.
You have already said that an EU boat in the EU is unlikely to be asked about VAT status, so is the issue of proving VAT status most likely to occur when you enter the EU, across an international boundary? Has that happened to you?

[more]

whenever sailing in the EU you obligated carry evidence of VAT payment, such as the builder’s receipt or paid invoice or a VAT certificate which some EU States provide. Alternatively, you must keep on board the document(s) issued by Customs or other relevant authority stating the reason for any exemption.

All yachts built in or brought into the EU on or after 1 January 1985 must be able to prove their VAT paid status. A boat built before this date is deemed to have VAT paid status if it was in private ownership and within the EU at midnight on 31 December 1992. Proof of this may be required by the local customs and can be difficult to provide as log books, marina receipts or invoices going back that far have often been lost or destroyed or simply not passed on as ownership has changed hands. If documentary evidence of the location of the vessel on 31 December 1992 cannot be provided you should provide whatever documents you have so that the local customs may form a view as to the location of the boat based on the documents you do have. Some sales have fallen through because such information cannot be provided and a potential buyer has an increased risk of being stopped and fined for a not having a VAT paid boat.

If the yacht is advertised as VAT paid it is important to request documentary evidence of this from the seller or their broker. For yachts built after 1 January 1985 the VAT should have been paid by the initial purchaser or importer. Evidence could by way of a receipted invoice or VAT certificate. Ideally you would want the original, but in the absence of this certified copies may be accepted. If the yacht is being sold by a company you will need to check whether it reclaimed any VAT paid when it purchased the yacht and thus the boat is now deemed VAT unpaid – a good point for brokers especially to consider.

If VAT should have been paid and was not, or there is no proof of the boat’s VAT status or the owning company paid and reclaimed VAT then the liability for paying any VAT due lies with the current owner and will pass to the purchaser on his/her purchase of the yacht.

Can a boat lose its VAT paid status?
If a yacht with VAT paid status is exported from the EU it will usually qualify for relief from having to pay VAT again if it is imported back into the EU within 3 years of its export, provided that it is imported by the same person who exported it, i.e. no change of owner whilst outside the EU. However, this will not exempt it from any customs duties that maybe apply. If your boat will be exported for more than 3 years you should check the position with customs.

If VAT has not been paid, when is it due?
VAT is payable on the happening of a chargeable event. A chargeable event occurs where the yacht is imported into the UK or is sold by a business in the course of its business.

If you are buying a new yacht from a VAT registered seller in the UK then VAT is payable on the purchase price. If the seller is VAT registered in another member state but the yacht is kept in the UK different rules apply in order to determine whether the VAT is due in the UK or the country of incorporation of the seller.

If you are buying a second hand boat and the seller is VAT registered, then VAT may be due on the sale price. The general rule in the UK is that if the yacht has increased in value since the date of purchase by the seller, VAT will be due on the amount by which the value has increased, even if VAT was previously paid on the purchase of the yacht and has not been reclaimed. The buyer will be liable to pay any VAT due. If the seller is not VAT registered no VAT will be payable on the purchase.

If you are buy at yacht from a business that does not charge VAT on the sale or from a private individual in the EU and the seller advises that VAT has previously been paid, you should obtain evidence from the seller or broker that VAT has previously been paid.

In respect of yachts imported from outside to within the EU, VAT should be paid at the time and place of import. It is assessed on the value of the yacht at the time of import. Customs will not necessarily rely on the value stated on the invoice or contract, they may seek valuations from brokers if they consider there has been an under-valuation.

An importer resident or incorporated in the EU should have paid VAT on import, even if the boat is registered in the Channel Islands or Gibraltar.

What if the VAT status cannot be proven and there is no chargeable event?
Some customs authorities may be prepared to look at the documentation available (and therefore any available receipts or log books should be kept) and may issue a letter of comfort that they yacht is considered by them as VAT paid. However, this is unusual and not a practice that is followed in the UK. In any event, such a letter is not proof that VAT is deemed paid. In respect of yachts build before 1 January 1985 and in the EU at midnight on 31 December 1992 such documentation and requests for a letter of comfort should be submitted to the customs authority in the country where the yacht was on 31 December 1992.

Conclusion
Tax is rarely straightforward and VAT in relation to yachts is no different. It is very rare that there is a simple yes or no answer. You should always obtain evidence of the VAT position before purchasing a boat.

again

https://www.keystonelaw.com/keynotes...ers-and-owners

[krismatski]

As a Polish sailor I helped a few sailing friends to register their boats under Polish flag. It is a very convinient flag for (pleasure) yachts with the hull lenghts up to 15m, as it does not require any updates, inspections or renewals. Also, there is no obligatory safety equipment list. For bigger boats two inspections over any 5 year period is required. Polish flag is convinient also for OLDER boats, as long as you do not care about stating the CE Category in the Registration License.
Since the Covid restrictions are withdrawn some originals must be presented at the "hard" licence pick-up: #1-Power of Attorney, #2 - Prove of Ownership (BoS), #3 - prove of deletion from previous register, if applicable. Of course you do not need to mail your passport - good quality photocopy will do. Also, pictures of the engine number & boat HIN/CIN number is required. But you start the procedure based on the scanned documents and "sworn" translations of the non Polish documents. Within about a week after documents are approved you get the temporary electronic cetificate, and after a month original plastic hard license is available. Since I'm not cruising this Winter I'm free to help.