"Pirates" off Gibraltar

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Your right to bear arms stops at YOUR countrys' 12 mile limit.

Not strictly true. It stops at another country's 12 mile limit. My understanding is that arms regulation is tied to the flag of the vessel and applies in international waters.

[B23iL23]

Correct, if you are being pedantic.

So leave your country, head out into international waters, fire off a couple of clips and then turn around and go back home.

Either that or check the firearm in each port as you arrive. My point is - you have no right to bear arms in any other country or inside their waters and don't ever assume you do.

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Not strictly true. It stops at another country's 12 mile limit. My understanding is that arms regulation is tied to the flag of the vessel and applies in international waters.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Correct, if you are being pedantic.

So leave your country, head out into international waters, fire off a couple of clips and then turn around and go back home.

Either that or check the firearm in each port as you arrive. My point is - you have no right to bear arms in any other country or inside their waters and don't ever assume you do.

I’m not familiar with the Strait of Gibraltar. Which country owns that again? Is it morocco or Spain?

There isn’t free passage in the middle of it? The entire thing is a territorial sea?


On a side topic, your fishing boat friend is an idiot. That’s called brandishing a weapon. The only time you take a weapon out is when you intend to kill the other person. That’s it. Otherwise, you never take it out. You don’t let anyone know you have it. As someone who doesn’t have any experience around weapons, I can imagine you don’t know these little secrets. So, my previous post still stands. Who is going to report you? The attacker is dead.

Weapons are the last resort. When it comes down to life or death. They are not toys.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by blu3534

Talking is easy... But you (personally) wouldn't pay for the 30 K€/migrant per year which it costs and, likely, don't face the cultural havoc it causes (Have a look a Sweden and Danemark and how they (are forced to) change their immigration politics, even supported by socialist parties.

The german migration policy fuels criminal human traffic organisations in those seas [1] and also causes deaths because people go out in unseaworthy dinghies (have a look at the numbers in Australia after they got more strict/sane).

I know you are german and knowing the german press I kindly ask that you inform yourself thoroughly before writing phrases like "We have a humane duty there". E.g. you (Germany) wouldn't be happy/able to provide "humane duty" to 500+ million people (which would be interested to migrate according to studies). Thanks.

No intention to become too offtopic, but I see a (possible) relation between human traffic, drug smuggling and piracy. Why not branch out if you are already not following the law?

[1]: (from the yacht magazin) Neben Schlepperbanden, die versuchen, Migranten aus Afrika an die spanische Südküste zu bringen, sei das Seegebiet auch ein Hotspot des internationalen Drogenschmuggels.

Oh no socialist parties, how dreadful.
In Europe we have a very wide political spectrum and amongst other also social-democrates play a long history in this.
I am not necessarily voting for them, but I do feel that they play a very valuable part in politics.
With their help we have a far less devisive and much more liberal democratic political climate in most of the European countries.

I am absolutely for helping those folks who have nothing if ourselves live in an abundance of prosperity and wealth.
We can even afford our boats and leisure.
Nothing wrong with that, but I feel that prosperity also comes with duties towards the less well off.

The story of cultural havoc in Sweden or any other of the European countries is a myth blown out of proportion by a guy who thinks that people in Vienna (capital of Austria) live in a forest with wooden houses.

I have absolutely no objections against the fact that some of my hard earned tax money is going into helping empoverished nations on their feet and helping to prevent the death by drowning.

Migration has to be stopped at its source and not when folks are fleeing.
Fueling revolutions without a proper plan on how to handle the aftermath is not clever either.

Put yourself for once in the shoes of someone who's family is starving to death and you may take another view on this.

Interesting enough the radical right wing parties have their biggest anti migration supporters in areas of Germany where there are almost zero migrants.

I am not against immediately throwing out people who treat their new host nation wrong by committing crimes. They show that don't appreciate the help they are offered and should be evicted immediately.

End of story for me at this point because these discussions are usually not fruitfully.

Originally Posted by blu3534

Talking is easy... But you (personally) wouldn't pay for the 30 K€/migrant per year which it costs and, likely, don't face the cultural havoc it causes (Have a look a Sweden and Danemark and how they (are forced to) change their immigration politics, even supported by socialist parties.

The german migration policy fuels criminal human traffic organisations in those seas [1] and also causes deaths because people go out in unseaworthy dinghies (have a look at the numbers in Australia after they got more strict/sane).

I know you are german and knowing the german press I kindly ask that you inform yourself thoroughly before writing phrases like "We have a humane duty there". E.g. you (Germany) wouldn't be happy/able to provide "humane duty" to 500+ million people (which would be interested to migrate according to studies). Thanks.

No intention to become too offtopic, but I see a (possible) relation between human traffic, drug smuggling and piracy. Why not branch out if you are already not following the law?

[1]: (from the yacht magazin) Neben Schlepperbanden, die versuchen, Migranten aus Afrika an die spanische Südküste zu bringen, sei das Seegebiet auch ein Hotspot des internationalen Drogenschmuggels.

[ol1970]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Oh no socialist parties, how dreadful.
In Europe we have a very wide political spectrum and amongst other also social-democrates play a long history in this.
I am not necessarily voting for them, but I do feel that they play a very valuable part in politics.
With their help we have a far less devisive and much more liberal democratic political climate in most of the European countries.

I am absolutely for helping those folks who have nothing if ourselves live in an abundance of prosperity and wealth.
We can even afford our boats and leisure.
Nothing wrong with that, but I feel that prosperity also comes with duties towards the less well off.

The story of cultural havoc in Sweden or any other of the European countries is a myth blown out of proportion by a guy who thinks that people in Vienna (capital of Austria) live in a forest with wooden houses.

I have absolutely no objections against the fact that some of my hard earned tax money is going into helping empoverished nations on their feet and helping to prevent the death by drowning.

Migration has to be stopped at its source and not when folks are fleeing.
Fueling revolutions without a proper plan on how to handle the aftermath is not clever either.

Put yourself for once in the shoes of someone who's family is starving to death and you may take another view on this.

Interesting enough the radical right wing parties have their biggest anti migration supporters in areas of Germany where there are almost zero migrants.

I am not against immediately throwing out people who treat their new host nation wrong by committing crimes. They show that don't appreciate the help they are offered and should be evicted immediately.

End of story for me at this point because these discussions are usually not fruitfully.

You could not be more wrong. There is no “myth” about cultural issues in Sweden, it is a stark reality. My wife is Swedish, her family lives north of Gothenburg which is a complete **** show. Her best friend is a police officer and there are entire areas where police are not allowed nor would dare venture into because they are now overrun with criminals (aka migrants). Just do a little research on the dramatic increase in rapes and crime in this once great country. My in-laws have seen their pension they worked their entire life for cut in half to pay for the ever growing migrant population that sucks off the tit of the socialist government to support people who refuse to even learn the language.

My opinion is from spending significant time there over the years, having family who lives there currently and friends who share with us what life is really like, and it is definitely not how you portray.

[B23iL23]

Right, ok then - "As someone who doesn’t have any experience around weapons, I can imagine you don’t know these little secrets."

So I lived in the U.S. for 7 years, worked with a guy who had over 30 weapons of all sorts (he was a "live free or die" kind of guy) and we regularly went the gun range and had fun with his "toys".

Anyway - I'm a believer in sticking to the laws of the country I'm a guest in. It's their country, their rules.

PS: the fisherman was not my friend and the guy with the gun was a cruiser. Don't know either but got the details from those directly involved with the case.

Originally Posted by Chotu

..
On a side topic, your fishing boat friend is an idiot. That’s called brandishing a weapon. The only time you take a weapon out is when you intend to kill the other person. That’s it. Otherwise, you never take it out. You don’t let anyone know you have it. As someone who doesn’t have any experience around weapons, I can imagine you don’t know these little secrets. So, my previous post still stands. Who is going to report you? The attacker is dead.

Weapons are the last resort. When it comes down to life or death. They are not toys.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by ol1970

You could not be more wrong. There is no “myth” about cultural issues in Sweden, it is a stark reality. My wife is Swedish, her family lives north of Gothenburg which is a complete **** show. Her best friend is a police officer and there are entire areas where police are not allowed nor would dare venture into because they are now overrun with criminals (aka migrants). Just do a little research on the dramatic increase in rapes and crime in this once great country. My in-laws have seen their pension they worked their entire life for cut in half to pay for the ever growing migrant population that sucks off the tit of the socialist government to support people who refuse to even learn the language.

My opinion is from spending significant time there over the years, having family who lives there currently and friends who share with us what life is really like, and it is definitely not how you portray.

Back in the 90's I regularly received a ton of flack from various highly educated, affluent European co-workers and friends about how badly we treated immigrants flowing in from Mexico. The US is a big rich country. Why don't you let these poor people in? You can afford it.

The shoe seems to be on the other foot now.

[Franziska]

Not totally.

It's a bit like in the Anti Corona Measure protests.
Say there are 20000-30000 protesters in Berlin. You see it in the media and you are stumped "oh, how many". Than you do the math and it's 0.025 % of the population with the vast percentage of the population (60-70%) actually fully supporting the currently very modest measures in Germany.

Same with the refugees. Who gets the regular and repeated press coverage? It's not the little family thankfully settling into a new life. They may get the press coverage once.
The in a percentage minute proportion of the refugees who are misbehaving get the regular and repeated press coverage.

So, some folks say "oh, how many"...



Any crime is bad and deserves to be punished. Courts may sometimes be to lenient to expulse refugee offenders, still the vast majority of refugees are grateful for the new chance they get offered.
The percentage of criminal offenders amongst refuges is almost the same as in the general population, and that despite the horrific situations they have been through.
Noone leaves their home country with a cheerful and relaxed mind. You give up everything, risk your life.

I do not blame the press at all, news is their business and if people prefer bad news, those are the news which get covered.
Now if there are repeated and factual bad news they will get covered. They are in way begging to be covered.
Still that does not change the fact that they are bad news.

By enlarge the media is very well informed and if you read the news with an open mind it's very easy to understand that.

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Back in the 90's I regularly received a ton of flack from various highly educated, affluent European co-workers and friends about how badly we treated immigrants flowing in from Mexico. The US is a big rich country. Why don't you let these poor people in? You can afford it.

The shoe seems to be on the other foot now.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Hey Barnie, interesting take on this.

But does the shadowing you describe happen in bright daylight?

Would it not be the other way round? Why would the cat be the boat with their stuff? Would it not be more likely that they want to offload their drugs onto the cat than? In that case I could see a mixup.
Still, why would they try several times once they see that the cat doesn't want them and as such shows that it's not their transport.

And btw. When I said shooting at the thugs when the flee, I mean the coast guard should be allowed to shoot from their chopper.
Only them and only to disable the fleeing RIB.

I assume most of the time the cat is an ally. A 'facilitator'. I do not know if always a willing one, but I am sure that at times yes, this is the case.


The whole zone is full of drug dealers - anywhere from La Coruña to Bijagos (Guinea Bissau). Some zones are hotspots - Azores, Galicia, Cadiz/Estrecho, Cabo Verde and Bijagos.


Cadiz / Guadalquivir is real bad. Been there seen that. Left the river scared for my life.


For obvious reasons the police do a lot of chasing but hardly any catching.


Stay safe,
b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by B_Hunter45

is one allowed to shoot individuals who try to board without permission, not when they escape, when they actually try to board?

Sir,


This is about Cadiz, Spain, NOT Cadiz, Texas.


If they are armed (some are, others not) they will take you down without any hesitation. They exercise on a regular basis, and the value of your life is no match to the value of their cargo.


There have never been any serious incidents here of traffickers killing sailors (other than the delivery crews of yachts moving the cargo). But if you want to start a new trend, then I suggest you do it back home where you live.


I live here and I do not want to hear of tourists shooting traffickers. Next time it can be me crossing Cadiz Bay. Why should I pay for your stupidity?


???


Take care. Avoid using guns. Avoid spreading your home attitudes thru the rest of the world. It is troubled enough as is.


Cheers,
b.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Not totally.

It's a bit like in the Anti Corona Measure protests.
Say there are 20000-30000 protesters in Berlin. You see it in the media and you are stumped "oh, how many". Than you do the math and it's 0.025 % of the population with the vast percentage of the population (60-70%) actually fully supporting the currently very modest measures in Germany.

Same with the refugees. Who gets the regular and repeated press coverage? It's not the little family thankfully settling into a new life. They may get the press coverage once.
The in a percentage minute proportion of the refugees who are misbehaving get the regular and repeated press coverage.

So, some folks say "oh, how many"...



Any crime is bad and deserves to be punished. Courts may sometimes be to lenient to expulse refugee offenders, still the vast majority of refugees are grateful for the new chance they get offered.
The percentage of criminal offenders amongst refuges is almost the same as in the general population, and that despite the horrific situations they have been through.
Noone leaves their home country with a cheerful and relaxed mind. You give up everything, risk your life.

I do not blame the press at all, news is their business and if people prefer bad news, those are the news which get covered.
Now if there are repeated and factual bad news they will get covered. They are in way begging to be covered.
Still that does not change the fact that they are bad news.

By enlarge the media is very well informed and if you read the news with an open mind it's very easy to understand that.

Clearly, then as now not all Americans agree with the Governments policies on immigration and are sympathetic to the illegals coming in from Mexico. However, now the European/EU outcry against immigration into Europe...EU is significant hence my point.

[Franziska]

There is far less factual outcry than what the man in D. C. tries to make you believe.

As Mrs. Merkel said "Wir schaffen das-we'll manage" that is actually what has happened and is happening right now.

The calm fact & science oriented approach of our chancellor dealt much better with the refugee crisis as well as the Corona crisis.

Personally I am not religious but still believe in the humanistic ideals.
As such I cherish that Mrs. Merkel honors also the "C" (Christian) in her parties name and is not doing so only by posing with a Bible. Neither does she make a difference between Muslims or Christians.
She is showing true leadership in the best way.

Still, maybe we should stop now. We will have to agree that we disagree I guess.
It's good to exchange point of views nevertheless.

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Clearly, then as now not all Americans agree with the Governments policies on immigration and are sympathetic to the illegals coming in from Mexico. However, now the European/EU outcry against immigration into Europe...EU is significant hence my point.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Franziska

There is far less factual outcry than what the man in D. C. tries to make you believe.

As Mrs. Merkel said "Wir schaffen das-we'll manage" that is actually what has happened and is happening right now.

The calm fact & science oriented approach of our chancellor dealt much better with the refugee crisis as well as the Corona crisis.

Personally I am not religious but still believe in the humanistic ideals.
As such I cherish that Mrs. Merkel honors also the "C" (Christian) in her parties name and is not doing so only by posing with a Bible. Neither does she make a difference between Muslims or Christians.
She is showing true leadership in the best way.

Still, maybe we should stop now. We will have to agree that we disagree I guess.
It's good to exchange point of views nevertheless.

Just for record, the factual? outcries I have heard come from personal interactions, posts such as the one above, and news articles. I can't recall any man or men in D.C. complaining about immigration into Europe/EU. I don't see how they would care.

In fact, more than a few local folks are very bitter about the immigration waves into Europe/EU countries for the reasons mentioned.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by B23iL23

Right, ok then - "As someone who doesn’t have any experience around weapons, I can imagine you don’t know these little secrets."

So I lived in the U.S. for 7 years, worked with a guy who had over 30 weapons of all sorts (he was a "live free or die" kind of guy) and we regularly went the gun range and had fun with his "toys".

Anyway - I'm a believer in sticking to the laws of the country I'm a guest in. It's their country, their rules.

PS: the fisherman was not my friend and the guy with the gun was a cruiser. Don't know either but got the details from those directly involved with the case.

See, still the wrong approach. Guns are not fun. They are not playthings. It’s because you were hanging around with a gun nut I think you have the wrong idea.

I don’t want a gun. I don’t enjoy shooting a gun. I never want to have to use my gun. Ever. But, when there are no options left, it’s my last resort.

I also believe the “when in Rome “ idea and follow the laws of anywhere I visit to a T. I always learn at least the basics of the language.

I often drive into Canada for little escapes in the summer. I put my gun into storage near the border inside the States before I go.

The difficulty with boats is in many cases we are taking our home places. We want to be able to defend our home from aggressors. I’m guessing (without knowing for sure) that the Straight of Gibraltar isn’t in Spain or Morocco’s control and a right of free passage exists for say, Russian ships to pass. Am I wrong?

In this case, if being attacked, you’re good to go trying to defend yourself. You are Within the law (or lack there of ).

If I’m pull into Galway and still have the defensive weapon aboard, I’d certainly be following the laws of Ireland regarding this weapon.

The Irish laws do NOT prohibit me from temporarily importing my firearm at Galway. It’s a matter of filling out the correct paperwork.

No idea why you are railing on against breaking the laws of places when you visit them with firearms. For Galway, I’d merely have to fill out this form:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/non-eu...ndividual.docx

Note: Ireland is possibly the last place on earth I would feel the need to bring one anyway. Ha ha. Much like Canada.

People are just way too extremist about this stuff. And way too fearful.

Both sides are out of touch, much like politics. We have gun nuts who are passionate about guns, love them, can’t wait to kill with them, want to brandish them and take them out to fire warning shots and just for fun.

Then we have anti gun nuts who are petrified of them, want to ban them and see anyone with them as crazy and potentially a law breaker in some areas.

The proper response, like most things, is a responsibile, measured approach somewhere in between.

Extremist views are rarely a good idea

[Franziska]

There is a guy in D. C. with orange hair who tells stories about the situation in a continent of which he does not even seem to know the capitals. That guy also keeps pointing fingers at what happens in Europe as to deflect from his own appealing record of "succes".

The outcry on refugees is far less over here than you think. I live here. I'm born in West Germany and live in the former eastern part already for quite some time.
Apart from that I lived for several years in France, in the UK in Slovenia and the Netherlands, I think I have a pretty good personal experience from that what is actually going on.

There are populistic idiots on both sides of the political spectrum which keep crying, but so far the more down to earth center of society is actually what is controlling politics and does understand that extremist positions have historically always lead to disaster.
Germany had two horrible dictatorships in the last century. I sincerely hope that we have learned from that, and I might add, I am also thankful for the trust and support the USA and others gave us in rebuilding as a true democracy after a stupid war which we began.

Im grateful that in most of Europe you need to actually have a certain amount of votes to be part of a government.
If you don't have enough votes (like the extremists AFD or Die Linke) , well than you are welcome to proof that you are worthy getting more votes.
Fortunately neither the far right nor the far left have achieved this.
So far our democracy is strong enough to not feel the need to suppress their voices. The latter would be undemocratic.

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Just for record, the factual? outcries I have heard come from personal interactions, posts such as the one above, and news articles. I can't recall any man or men in D.C. complaining about immigration into Europe/EU. I don't see how they would care.

In fact, more than a few local folks are very bitter about the immigration waves into Europe/EU countries for the reasons mentioned.