Our First Offer... was this normal?

[Kenomac]

I had the same thing happen to me several times over the past couple of years prior to purchasing our present boat. The seller is playing games with you and possibly one other buyer.... best to find another boat.

In one case, the mystery buyer who offered more than us, eventually used the survey to back out of the deal when he must have realized he'd been "played." The boat remained on the market for over two years with the seller continuing to play games with the selling price. Eventually word gets around among the brokers, and none will show the boat any longer.

In todays market, I find it hard to believe the guy is receiving bids higher than the listing price.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I sold my boat last fall. I verbally accepted an offer at listing price on a Friday with contract to be signed on Monday. On Saturday I received an offer of $10k above listing price which I turned down stating I already had verbally accepted another offer.

It cost me 10k but I sleep well.

If they offered 10K above asking price, they must have known you'd already accepted an offer, right?

You were correct to turn it down, both out of honor and and because it's difficult to know if it would have actually come through.

It also sounds like you weren't working with a broker.

[Jammer Six]

Money talks. Paper talks. Talk doesn't even make a sound.

A contract is a meeting of the minds. If every word you say is true, there wasn't one here.

Assuming the broker was a seller's agent (and he was) there was nothing even close to an accepted offer here.

[gts1544]

Folks, Let me relate an incident that just occurred to me concerning a sail boat trailer on Craig's List. The trailer was held out for sale to the public / I made an offer in writing / The offer was accepted in writing / The requested deposit was sent and accepted via Pay Pal / Later, the deposit was unilaterally returned and the Seller backed out of the deal. Just out of curiosity, I asked my daughter, who is an State's Assistant Attorney General, whether a contract had, in fact, been established? Her reply was that in a court of law, based on my documentation, I would have had a pretty good argument for "specific performance" and a case for damages to the extent that it cost me to find and procure a like trailer, plus legal costs, if the seller could not deliver the trailer. She also stated that for the amount involved ($2000) it was probably not worth the trouble, which was fine as I was not going to go there anyway. Be aware that there are "implied ways" to establish a contractual relationship that could work for or against you, depending on where you stand. George

[monte]

Gazumping occurs when a seller (especially of property) accepts an oral offer of the asking price from one potential buyer, but then accepts a higher offer from someone else. It can also refer to the seller raising the asking price at the last minute, after previously orally agreeing to a lower one. In either case, the original buyer is left in a bad situation, and either has to offer a higher price or lose the purchase.[1] The term gazumping is most commonly used in the UK and Australia, although similar practices can be found in some other jurisdictions.




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[robert sailor]

I've been in business accepting offers for most of my life and I have a saying when salesmen bring me verbal offers... " I can't hear but I can read"

[Patman]

Something I learned from buying my first boat. You "the buyer" should have a broker too. It will cost you nothing as he's paid from the commission from the sale of the boat from the other broker. Your broker works for you, not the seller and will tell you in a heartbeat this deal sucks. Additionally,as a third party, you have someone who is thinking rationally as buying a boat can be an irrational experience.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by roverhi

Until the offer is signed and accepted by both parties and the terms of the contract, in this case a deposit among other things, you don't have a deal. Too bad you were a bit cheap on your offer. Quite often a seller will come back to the initial offeror and agree to accept a matching offer from them but there is no requirememt to do so. Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

First of all, a lawyer's pet peeve: A "verbal" contract is just a contract expressed in words, written or oral. You mean an oral contract, that is, one which is not written down.

"Verbal [oral] contract aren't worth the paper they are printed on" is very bad advice. There are very many situations where your promises and agreements expressed without writing can be enforced against you. There is a really famous case where an agreement, made by handshake, with no written contract, to sell Getty Oil company, resulted in $9 billion (!) damages being awarded to the buyer, when the seller sold the company to someone else. The case is mentioned in the good Wikipedia article on oral contracts: Oral contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, most (maybe all) states have some version of the ancient English Statute of Frauds which requires some kinds of contracts to be in writing. This usually includes, among others, contracts having to do with marriage, conveying real estate, or the sale of goods over some amount of money. I think most boat sales in most states will fall under this rule, and so oral contracts for the sale of boats will probably not be enforceable in most states.

In any case, I don't think we get to any of these issues here. The broker said that your offer would be accepted IF you signed the contract AND made the payment by a certain time. You didn't make the payment before the offer was retracted. What he said means specifically that there is no deal prior to those things happening -- the broker was no dummy; he expressed this in technically sophisticated way, leaving himself the right to deal with others prior to the time he had money in the bank and a signed contract in his hands.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The broker said that your offer would be accepted IF you signed the contract AND made the payment by a certain time. You didn't make the payment before the offer was retracted. What he said means specifically that there is no deal prior to those things happening -- the broker was no dummy; he expressed this in technically sophisticated way, leaving himself the right to deal with others prior to the time he had money in the bank and a signed contract in his hands.

This is the way I read it.

You hadn't made a legal offer yet.

[tomfl]

Maybe a little OT but this issue has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

Some folks say don't make an offer close to the listed price, knock it down some. In this case the OP made an offer close ($US5k less) to the asking price but did not dot all the Is or cross all the Ts before another offer was made for the asking price.

I don't see any legal recourse for the OP. But the point I am trying to make is that in this case the asking price seems to be a reasonable one based on both the OP's offer and the higher offer from the guy who bought the boat.

Bottom line there are boats advertised with an asking price that is a fair one. If one is interested in such a boat be aware that things may move very quickly and someone may even make a legit offer above the asking price.

Sure there are boats out there that are real steals that are sold far below their real value. But it will often take time to find such a deal and often times these boats are not really advertised in a conventional sense; you just have to be on the dock at the right time with hundred dollar bills in your hand. As a rule these 'real steals' are not sold using a broker.

Good luck to the OP, there are plenty of boats being sold and you should be able to find one. Some folks have more money than time and are willing to pay top dollar for a boat, other folks have more time than money and are willing to wait around for a 'real steal'. It is important to know which group you fit in as both a buyer and seller.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Maybe a little OT but this issue has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

Some folks say don't make an offer close to the listed price, knock it down some. In this case the OP made an offer close ($US5k less) to the asking price but did not dot all the Is or cross all the Ts before another offer was made for the asking price.

I don't see any legal recourse for the OP. But the point I am trying to make is that in this case the asking price seems to be a reasonable one based on both the OP's offer and the higher offer from the guy who bought the boat.

Bottom line there are boats advertised with an asking price that is a fair one. If one is interested in such a boat be aware that things may move very quickly and someone may even make a legit offer above the asking price.

Sure there are boats out there that are real steals that are sold far below their real value. But it will often take time to find such a deal and often times these boats are not really advertised in a conventional sense; you just have to be on the dock at the right time with hundred dollar bills in your hand. As a rule these 'real steals' are not sold using a broker.

Good luck to the OP, there are plenty of boats being sold and you should be able to find one. Some folks have more money than time and are willing to pay top dollar for a boat, other folks have more time than money and are willing to wait around for a 'real steal'. It is important to know which group you fit in as both a buyer and seller.

That's very good advice!

Some people say "Never offer less than x% less than the asking price; because all boats are always sold for at least y% less than asking price." This is nonsense; some boats are overpriced, some fairly priced, some underpriced. Just because the market is good or bad or anything else, doesn't mean that all boats are overpriced or underpriced. If you choose to haggle on the price, you had better be ready that the owner will not accept or that you might not close the deal before someone makes a better offer. No rule of thumb will replace plain old judgement and market knowledge, which is the only way to know how much you should offer for a boat (or anything else), or whether you should offer full price. Every deal takes a willing seller and a willing buyer -- the less you leave on the table for the other guy, the more incentive he has to back out or sell to someone else.

[darylat8750]

I didn't see you mention that the offer was made contingent on a survey. Even if you have a lot of experience with machinery it is very risky to expect to find everything that needs attention by your self. A survey on a 40 foot boat would take the better part of a day and I personally would not buy a boat without a survey that included operating all the systems underway and looking at hull and running gear out of the water.

[Saltyhog]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

If you offered anything close to the list price you offered way too much. Retract your offer and look for another boat. There is ALWAYS another boat.

I smell a rat with this broker and this seller. I suspect you were being played.

I agree. Unless there was something *REALLY* special about this boat or a really low asking price, it all smells bad. Consider yourself lucky to get out of the deal, and start looking at other boats.

[DeepFrz]

Is it true, that in some states at least, if a boat is listed with a broker that some taxes don't need to be paid? I have heard that somewhere. I also often see boats listed with the addition of "seriously for sale", making me wonder if many boats are listed in order to avoid paying state taxes. Am I right or wrong on this point?

[nwdiver]

I agree with many above:

1) if you were paying asking price you were paying too much
2) The seller and his broker have no ethics, because:

It sounds like someone else was interested also, maybe before you and your faxed agreement gave the scum sucking broker the ability to crank up someone else's offer as he had yours in writing............. this is a massive breach of ethics and your agreement should have had an 1) exclusivity clause and 2) a time frame to complete with timing on the deposit and other things mentioned above and if these were not in the papers you faxed the broker is even a bigger scum bag............... but he sees it as just getting his client ( and of course his pocket) more money.....