Orcas sink yacht off Portugal

[hpeer]

Paulie,

Thanks for the report.

Of the boats missing rudders. How many were spade, skeg hung, barn door/full keel, transom mounted?

Of those with prop or shaft damage how many were exposed as to in an aperture?

My assumption, perhaps wrong, is that spade rudders are more vulnerable to damage.

The other question is, do the Orcas select which boat to mess with based in rudder type? Again presuming as spades are more exposed they are easier to grab and thus more “fun”.

We had a “pet” juvenile beluga here in the bay one summer. It came in about every other day and really liked to interact. The kids would bang on a skiff and it would come over to get its belly rubbed. It played a lot and its favorite pass time was to tow skiffs around.

The skiffs are tied to the dock with a longish painter and to a small mooring, keeping them off the dock. The whale would position the mooring line across its forehead and “push” on the line moving the boat. So we got used to seeing boats moving about on their own. Apparently great fun. When we left the cove in September I stopped to take one fond look back, and there goes a boat with no owner. Still at it.

It was around so much no one paid much attention. One evening I went to the dock, just myself. The beluga was on the surface acting like a 3 year old in a bath. Rolling around, blowing bubbles, chattering; just having a roaring good time all by itself.

We may experience these events as attacks, and rightfully so. Yet the Orcas may experience them as play.

I wonder what would happen if you threw out a fender or orange float? I have seen video of a whale (orca?) playing catch with someone on a boat, in the wild. Or perhaps a piece of plywood slightly weighted so it floated vertical? Give them a better toy???? Maybe a huge tennis ball.

[Suricat46]

Ever heard of GUIA III sank by orcas, 9 March 1976 ?
Here is a factual and detailed report of the event by crew on board.
(Sorry this document is in French but translation should not be a problem)

https://jbrasseul.wordpress.com/2016...-sauve-la-vie/

[SV Tom Crean]

Here's a couple of photos of a new Amel 50 that got hit off Gib in June. Both rudders chopped off by one of two Orcas (about 4m long). The boat was sailing in about 25kts and the impact threw the Amel around 90 degrees.

No water intrusion and the steering still worked ok - in fact the boat turned around and sailed back to La Rochelle and had two new rudders installed.

[hpeer]

So what, that happened in 1976. That you need to dig that deep to find another sinking makes the point how rare these events are.

And I believe it was a 1922 vintage wooden boat, already 54 years old.

That the boat was damaged is obvious. But did the whale hit the boat or the boat hit the whale?

Somewhere I have a picture of a sailfish that rammed a wooden skiff. Its bill went clear through BOTH sides of the boat.

While these Orcas are being a royal PITA I find it rich to say an Orca sank a boat. That implies intent and any proof there of is wholly missing.

I understand the orcas may have wounded and damaged the yacht. But the yacht should nkt sink because of rudder damage. At this point we here know nothing of the mechanism that caused the boat to sink. Perhaps it had previous damage to the rudder supports which had not been properly repaired. Or a hundred other “what ifs”.

[hpeer]

^ Tom,

Thanks for posting that.

We need more info like this.

[Suricat46]

Dear hpeer, no, this was not "an old 1922" boat but a new boat, 44', cold molded wood, racing on the Atlantic Triangle from Rio (3rd and last leg).
Obviously, the hull was violently punctured by an orca and the resulting hole and water inlet could not be managed by usual methods.
This news was reported in French magazines and I still remember about it.
Fortunately, youger generations of orcas seem now to concentrate or rudders, no more on hulls https://www.cruisersforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by SV Tom Crean

Here's a couple of photos of a new Amel 50 that got hit off Gib in June. Both rudders chopped off by one of two Orcas (about 4m long). The boat was sailing in about 25kts and the impact threw the Amel around 90 degrees.

No water intrusion and the steering still worked ok - in fact the boat turned around and sailed back to La Rochelle and had two new rudders installed.

It's interesting to me that there is no sign of any steel weldment in that rudder. So it was able to be broken rather easily (easy for an Orca). But with a large steel weldment then assumably the impacts of Orca hits would be born by the rudder post, bearings, and hull structure around the lower bearing. To me it is easy to imagine damage to that area of the hull that would sink the boat.

With a skeg rudder the impacts would also be born by the skeg and lower bearing. Different damage but also possible to sink.

A keel hung rudder might be less vulnerable to hull damage, so there could be a benefit to full keels!

In the one video I watched the Orcas came calmly up to the rudder from behind and started munching on the back edge of the rudder. In the case of Guia III it seems like an Orca or fleeing dolphin hit the wooden boat like a torpedo; probably not intentional. Somewhat different. Oh what a headache!

I think there might be different ways Orca's have damaged boats, but the one I saw did not look to me like an enraged mom protecting her calf. Nor like a speeding pod of hunters attacking an interfering intruder. Nor even like a young Orca playing or even any Orca feeding ("Ugh, this fiberglass tastes really bad!"). No, it looked to me like very intentional damage to what is probably the most vulnerable part of the boat (that is the mysterious and intriguing part).

I hope this episode will pass but if it doesn't, if they keep increasing, I do think something should be done. Maybe just conceding that portion of the ocean to the Orcas. Maybe something else, hopefully not as drastic as culling. That would be drastic and a disgrace to our species.

Maybe if the Orcas are smart enough to figure out where is the best place on a sailboat to damage it perhaps they would be smart enough to recognize that a concerted attempt by humans to make them stop, which they might view as a physical threat to them, and cut it out.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Suricat46

Dear hpeer, no, this was not "an old 1922" boat but a new boat, 44', cold molded wood, racing on the Atlantic Triangle from Rio (3rd and last leg).

OK, new racing boat.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It's interesting to me that there is no sign of any steel weldment in that rudder. So it was able to be broken rather easily (easy for an Orca). But with a large steel weldment then assumably the impacts of Orca hits would be born by the rudder post, bearings, and hull structure around the lower bearing. To me it is easy to imagine damage to that area of the hull that would sink the boat.



With a skeg rudder the impacts would also be born by the skeg and lower bearing. Different damage but also possible to sink.



A keel hung rudder might be less vulnerable to hull damage, ....

What you can't see is a plate welded onto the stock inside the rudder. This goes maybe 50% of the vertical length.

The fact that there was a significant impact and yet no water intrusion and no loss of steering tells you that at least in this case, spade rudders worked fine.

Also in this case water intrusion would not sink the boat - the aft lazerette on the Amel has a watertight bulkhead.

Check the fb forum for photos of skeg hung rudders that didn't fare very well. These Orcas aren't picky about modern or traditional designs.

[Paulie]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Paulie,

Thanks for the report.

Of the boats missing rudders. How many were spade, skeg hung, barn door/full keel, transom mounted?

Of those with prop or shaft damage how many were exposed as to in an aperture?

My assumption, perhaps wrong, is that spade rudders are more vulnerable to damage.

The other question is, do the Orcas select which boat to mess with based in rudder type? Again presuming as spades are more exposed they are easier to grab and thus more “fun”.

We had a “pet” juvenile beluga here in the bay one summer. It came in about every other day and really liked to interact. The kids would bang on a skiff and it would come over to get its belly rubbed. It played a lot and its favorite pass time was to tow skiffs around.

The skiffs are tied to the dock with a longish painter and to a small mooring, keeping them off the dock. The whale would position the mooring line across its forehead and “push” on the line moving the boat. So we got used to seeing boats moving about on their own. Apparently great fun. When we left the cove in September I stopped to take one fond look back, and there goes a boat with no owner. Still at it.

It was around so much no one paid much attention. One evening I went to the dock, just myself. The beluga was on the surface acting like a 3 year old in a bath. Rolling around, blowing bubbles, chattering; just having a roaring good time all by itself.

We may experience these events as attacks, and rightfully so. Yet the Orcas may experience them as play.

I wonder what would happen if you threw out a fender or orange float? I have seen video of a whale (orca?) playing catch with someone on a boat, in the wild. Or perhaps a piece of plywood slightly weighted so it floated vertical? Give them a better toy???? Maybe a huge tennis ball.

To be honest, I have been following this situation for a while now and so far there seems to be no pattern as to what type of boat/keel/rudder combination is more or less attractive. One of the boats in Sines was a Nicholson with a keel hung rudder with aperture. Then no rudder or aperture and bent shaft and chunk missing from the keel. A couple of the others were spades. Ours is a spade. We met some guys in Cascais on a brand new Oyster with twin rudders that had sustained a two hour ordeal with a large group and luckily came away undamaged. Three other boats in Cascais all got pestered on the same day with no damage.
Sadly, the most logical explanation is that they are just amusing themselves. There was no belligerence or frenzy. Once the engine was off it was quite deliberate, just get that shoulder in there and work that rudder and maybe have a quick chew if there’s time.
Apparently steel rudders fair well, glass and wood not so well.
On the subject of toys, I saw a clip where someone threw an inflated life raft into the water with a group of Orcas. It didn’t last long and I certainly would not be repairing to ours whilst they were on the scene until there was absolutely no other option.

[AKA-None]

I think if they are smart enough to recognize that the rudder will incapacitate a boat then you’ll have to move them out of the dumb animal classification

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

I think if they are smart enough to recognize that the rudder will incapacitate a boat then you’ll have to move them out of the dumb animal classification

I don't think anyone puts Orcas into a "dumb animal classification" but it wouldn't be such a stretch if Orcas noticed the similarity of rudders to the tail fins that fishes and marine mammals have.

You want to stop a porpoise? Bite off its tail.

You want to teach him a lesson? Bite off part of his tail.

If you get tired of munching fiberglass, butt him really hard (like twisting his arm behind his back)

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I don't think anyone puts Orcas into a "dumb animal classification" but it wouldn't be such a stretch if Orcas noticed the similarity of rudders to the tail fins that fishes and marine mammals have.



You want to stop a porpoise? Bite off its tail.



You want to teach him a lesson? Bite off part of his tail.



If you get tired of munching fiberglass, butt him really hard (like twisting his arm behind his back)

Just what I thought. Good point, especially as rudders look very much like fins.

[seasilk]

This is a long thread, so I will try to keep this comment short.

I didn't see anything in the original report that would make me think this was anything other than an accident. I remember that several years ago on the Bahaha, a very experienced captain/instructor had a J Boat sunk by a whale (grey or humpback) when the whale knocked against the rudder post hard enough to break it off. That creates a very large hole in the boat and the boat sunk in 7-10 minutes. Miraculously, all crew got off into the lifeboat and were rescued by the USCG even though they were in Mexican waters. This happened in the dark and it was suspected at the time that the boat got between a mother whale and her calf.

My point is that this could have just been a group of Orca playing in the boat's wake and one of them accidently slammed against the rudder post.

My wife and I were always been cautious around whales since they are sometimes larger than our sailboat, but I don't think we have ever thought they were maliciously attacking our boat. If you want to see that, watch JAWS..,LOL.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by seasilk

This is a long thread, so I will try to keep this comment short.

I didn't see anything in the original report that would make me think this was anything other than an accident. I remember that several years ago on the Bahaha, a very experienced captain/instructor had a J Boat sunk by a whale (grey or humpback) when the whale knocked against the rudder post hard enough to break it off. That creates a very large hole in the boat and the boat sunk in 7-10 minutes. Miraculously, all crew got off into the lifeboat and were rescued by the USCG even though they were in Mexican waters. This happened in the dark and it was suspected at the time that the boat got between a mother whale and her calf.

My point is that this could have just been a group of Orca playing in the boat's wake and one of them accidently slammed against the rudder post.

My wife and I were always been cautious around whales since they are sometimes larger than our sailboat, but I don't think we have ever thought they were maliciously attacking our boat. If you want to see that, watch JAWS..,LOL.

No. This is not an accidental collision with the rudder. The Orcas are targeting the rudders of multiple boats time and again. I personally think they are playing, they find it fun and teach each other. But it is deliberate and targeted.