Ocean-Going

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

I suppose I have a view that is coloured by the fact that a typicla day sailing here in NZ is 20kts. A light day would be 15kts and average days 20-30kts. Now I guess that at 15-20kts, most lightweight boats are going to beat the pants of mine. But from 20 up, I doubt there will be a lot of difference in speed vs weight, when viewed as same lengths of course. So I don't always see the argument of going anywhere quicker to get out of the way of weather. However, I need to remember that down here, we have a stronger average wind pressure, so in your neck of the woods, a boat like mine would most likely be very frustrating to sail.

In "Chasing Liquid Mountains" David Adams recorded the wind speeds for an entire round the world race, including Cape Horn, and the Southern Ocean. The average was 5 knots. If you have a boat that needs 15 - 20 knots to sail, then on a more "normal" circumnavigation in lower lattitudes you are going to be motoring more often than not.

[CSY Man]

I'll duck now as the 'heavy is alway best' brigade come back for a second go........good luck.

Well, I am a "heavy" boater with a CSY 33 weighing in @ 27,000 lbs according to the travel-lift strain gauges.

She feels sturdy and stable in gale conditions, but need 15 to 18 knots to sail good.
When it pipes up to 30 and 40 knots she is still going good with reefed sails and not slamming or pounding too much. Also stiff, and uh, did I mention stable?

In heavy weather however, I don't think the lighter boat is any faster.
(As was indicated earlier in the thread: A light boat gets there faster)

In light winds of course the oversized thin-hulled dinghy will sail circles around me.
That is when I turn on the diesel and motor on.

No class or morals I have, but I sure love my heavy and heavy-duty boat...

Have been in fools way a few times, including crossing the Gulfstream in 9 feet waves blowing 25 to 28 on the nose.
Took 14 hours it did, but the boat handled it just fine.

A similar size light boat may have beaten itself and the crew to pieces: Don't know for sure and don't want to find out.

I'd say "live and let live" however:
If the average wind for a circumnavigation is only 5 knots, go for the lightest and cheapest boat ya can find:

We are all big boys and we make our own decisions, just don't count me in on the journey....

[Alchemist]

kiwis face 1000 nm of pacific to get anywhere. I ended up with the same as wheels Tahitian 45 !
three types of hull
1 heavy displacement full keel will not go to windward well slow yet steers well Long keel insures directional stability easy motion wont tire the crew plenty of storage deep bilges so dry inside
2 medium displacement 3/keel rudder on skeg better to wind ward quicker turning not so good down wind a little quicker in motion but still fine
3 light displacement fin keel spade rudder points high sails fast yet needs more grew input in both steering and sails tends to move around a lot pound and bash very little bilge any water inside will wet everything .will move around a lot at anchor rudder exposed to damage in large sea

I must be getting old. slow and comfortable suits me

[CSY Man]

I must be getting old. slow and comfortable suits me

yeah, me too.

My car is a slow heavy GM pick-up truck.
My motorcycle of choice is a Harley Davidson 2 cylinder.

My woman, uh never mind, she would kill my arse dead if I mentioned her in this here slow/heavy thread..

kiwis face 1000 nm of pacific to get anywhere.

Jeez, ya guys don't get a break?
Guess that is the reason Kiwis are good sailors.
And why Norwegians are fast skiers: So far between the trees, nowhere to stop for a leak...

[Alan Wheeler]

Yeap and we only have to have a couple of degrees in navigation era and we could be out there sailing for months before we see land again ;-)

[Pblais]

Yeap and we only have to have a couple of degrees in navigation era and we could be out there sailing for months before we see land again ;-)

Must be nice to have all that water. Here you can run aground 3 miles off shore.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Must be nice to have all that water. Here you can run aground 3 miles off shore.

Here the tide can go out 3 miles offshore.

[Cruisingdad]

I always find these conversations interesting. I feel they often misdirect people to what they really should get.

I am new here, and am sure to catch the ire of many, but many will find I throw out the dissenting opinion on many things, especially an "ocean going" boat. So, realizing that, let me get started for anyone that is seriously considering buying a boat, living aboard, and going cruising.

First of all, I would take a Hunter around the world with an experienced crew and capt before I would take a Valiant across the gulf with an inexperienced one. Period. Anyone that dissagrees I have to wonder if you have ever been caught in a storm offshore. Differnt boats behave differently, I understand that. Anyone that for a moment thinks a Hunter is built as well as a Valiant has never seen a Valiant, is blind, or both. However, it is the captain that will save you - not the boat. Important distinction with just a rare, few exceptions (ie, stong northern or hurricane with breaking seas, which I have been in... in a Catalina, in fact). Thus: PUT THE EMPHASIS ON YOUR SEAMANSHIP, NOT THE BOAT. Listen to me here - this advice might just save your life.

Second, you will spend 99% of your time on the hook, with that little 1% going (when you cruise & liveaboard). BUY A BOAT THAT IS COMFORTABLE. I cannot tell you how many times I see Hunters and Catalinas and Bene's out sailing while Valiants sit in the dock. Why? THey are bloody tight and uncomfortable. THere is a reason for that, and you really need to weather a storm or two offshore to understand it. BUT, what makes a good passagemaking, bluewater (a word I hate), yacht does not always make a nice, comfortable liveaboard. The two are often mutually exclusive. There are Catalinas all over the world right now. A female couple just set a new record sailing their Catalina from CA to Hawaii. Another couple sailed their 36 across to France, many to South America, etc, etc. However, if I was going to be making those types of runs, (with the exception of S America) I would opt for a different boat like a Mason or Bristol or Hylas (my 3 favorite). Valiant is absolutely awesome too. But, size for size, you will find a V50 SMALLER down below than my Catalina 400. Pacific Seacraft too. You might get there in a higher % of safety (compared to a modern production boat), but once you are there, you will find your boat cramped (especially if you have kiddos). Keep that in mind.

Third, modern ocean going boats have many systems. Make sure you have a lot of room for electronics. Electronics are nothing more than a tool - and should never replace good ole' eyeballs, but a radar has sure saved my butt a few times and I doubt I would ever be without a Chartplotter. Using them correctly with good seamanship and constant paper plotting (on those old fashioned things some "sailors" dont buy!) is the only way to go.

Fourth, consider a different option for a "ocean going" boat. Buy a boat that you can comfortably liveaboard. Go see everything on this continent. Short of a MacGregor 26, I cannot imagine a modern sailing boat rated for ocean use that cannot take several days offshore (or more) in anything but the worst of weather (which you would never sail off into anyways). Go sail all around this continent. You can get lost in the Tortugas, the islands, Jamaica is BEAUTIFUL, Guatemala, etc. Once you have seen all you care to see on this continent (should that day ever come), call Dockwise Yacht Transport and have them drop your tub wherever else you want to go on this planet. You avoided a grueling passage, saved 10's of thousands of dollars, and did it all safely - while having a boat you can live on comfortbaly. When you tire of that, call them up again to go see your next destination. Then you can say, "I saw the world" while you are sitting at the yacht club, you just can't say I circumnavigated it on my boat. THen again, you made it around safely and you might have even saved your life.

But, that decision is yours...

- CD

PS Many will find on this forum that I am a HUGE FAN of Valiants, and know many, many, many of the people that make them and have nothing but the highest respect for them (even call them friends). If you walk into their service department, you will find a picture of my last boat hanging there on the wall to your left (which was a Catalina, incidentally). Thus, do not take my comments toward their boats negative. They are awesome boats... but they are built to cross oceans - not as island hoppers in the bahamas or S island. BUY THE BOAT FOR THE INTENDED PURPOSE, AND BE REALISTIC FOR GOD'S SAKES!!!!

[CSY Man]

BUY THE BOAT FOR THE INTENDED PURPOSE, AND BE REALISTIC FOR GOD'S SAKES!!!!

I took yer advice some years ago when I bought my CSY 33 for island hopping the Bahamas.
She is very comfortable as a liveaboard with plenty of room and plenty of storage.

More elbow room than a Pacific Seacraft 34 or 37 and more than a Shannon 38..(Had those boats rent dock space from me and have been inside 'em many times)

That being said, the above boats are lighter and less beamy and probably sail "better".

Point is, yes: Intended purpose, agree.

[Cruisingdad]

Everyone dreams about making the horn, crossing the pacific, circling hawaii on your way through NZ as you hop over to the Red Sea. Very few people do it. Valiants are VERY expensive (as all boats are, I guess). Many (would it be fair to say most) buy these boats and have never been in a storm offshore. I don't care WHAT boat you are in, it is not fun and it is not comfortable. Period (at least none of the storms I have been in). Even a Hylas 54 has to ride the mountains. Anyways, they buy these boats and after the first really good storm they realize they are not going to do that again. The boat is uncomfortable for coastal cruising (no offense, all of you V42 owners), and BAM! It sits in the marina. There are about a half dozen Valiants sitting at CM right now. That is just North Texas.

I don't want to offend anyone, but the people that talk about the Hunters and Catalinas, etc just sitting in the docks all the time - I rarely see that. It is the Valiants and PS and the like that I see just sitting there because they are small and if it isn't blowing 20 they aren't moving well.

THat being said, they are some of the best boats made in the world. They hold their value well and are somewhat as strong ten years later as they are the day you buy them. They will take a storm a Catalina will not take (given equal captains of equal skill and equal luck). When you are making a long passage, you do not have the liberty of a weather window (ie, 2 weeks or better). You have to take what Mother Nature throws. Thus, buy a Valiant. But ALL boats are coastal cruisers. No one goes across the Atlantic and turns around to come back at the first sight of land. You cross the Atlantic to see the Med, France, Portugal, Africa... whatever. From that point on, you are coastal cruising again.

[Cruisingdad]

You know, one other comment from what I read earlier. For those of you that think you do not care how fast your boat is because you are sailing/cruising, etc... well, I once thought that way. Got caught in a storm 120 miles off FL in 15+ breaking seas for 27 hours. Nowhere to duck. A fast boat can manuever the seas better. A fast boat gets you OUT of the seas quicker. A fast boat will handle better. Now, of course, there are exceptions to this rule as there are all rules, but do not play down the importance of a fast boat in a storm or sea. I am not talking J performance, but if it is a cork in the water, you will be miserable.

[CSY Man]

Everyone dreams about making the horn, crossing the pacific, circling hawaii on your way through NZ as you hop over to the Red Sea.

No, you are wrong on that one.

I have no dreams, plans or ambitions for all that, guessing a few other folks don't dream of that either, but can only speak for myself.

A fast boat can manuever the seas better. A fast boat gets you OUT of the seas quicker. A fast boat will handle better.

Hmm, conventional wisdom says that a fast boat is also a light boat...

So to spin this further, a light boat is better in heavy weather because it can maneuver the seas better?

Why in the word do they make heavy boats then?
What a waste if the fast and light boats are so much better in all respects.

[smm]

Originally Posted by Efraim

If we are going to be spending well into the 6 figures, we need better answers than, can't make much of a business case based on hearsay can you?

Unfortunately, you are buying a boat, and better answers are thin on the ground. For any type of boat, there are vanishingly few people who have ever sailed one in a storm, and only a tiny fraction of those took much away from the experience other than abject horror. If your're lucky enough to find one of those latter to talk to great, otherwise hearsay is about as good as it gets. We're used to buying cars, which are widely reviewed on the basis actual performance, actually crash tested, heavily regulated, etc. etc. The boat market isn't like this. And, would you really trust a boat review from someone who would sail into a storm on purpose just to see how the boat would work? The weather gets bad, we do something, our situation improves, at this point are you seriously going to say, "Hey, I know that riding to the sea anchor seems to be working, but, in the spirit of scientific inquiry, let's give the series drogue a try just to see if it might be better."

So I have to agree that what makes a boat "offshore capable" is really the skipper. I don't think that anyone would care to duplicate Shackleton's 2000-mile southern ocean voyage in an open boat, but it sure as hell was "offshore capable." As near as I can tell, this comes down to knowing your particular boat really well and always having a list of alternatives to try for every situation, from a freshening gale to the wind pinning you against the dock.

-Scott

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha All,
Interesting discussion and points of view. Nothing gives you speed in a storm more than waterline length whether light or heavy. Heavy displacement boats don't sail well in light winds That's not storm conditions. Light displacement boats bob around like a cork in moderate winds. Nobody can outrun a storm headed in your direction. You might avoid getting hit by the eye but you aren't going to outrun it. Just get whatever boat you think will hold together in whatever storm you think you might encounter. Think about your, or your skipper's, mental ability to hang together when being tossed about. That's going to determine your survivability.
Just my point of view.
I like Catalinas. My first was a fin keel 22. Good quality little boat. I wouldn't take it across the Pacific though.
What kind of record did someone set in a Catalina coming from the west coast? Couldn't be smallest.
Kind Regards,
JohnL

[Cruisingdad]

CSY,

Sorry, the, "sailing around NZ" comment was my poor attempt at sarcasm. I agree. No interest in that right now for me either.

As far as the factor of weight versus speed, etc... that is not where I was going. My point was that many, many times I speak to people at boat shows or on the docks that say, "I don't care how she sails (blah, blah, blah), I am just out cruising." My point is that you BETTER be concerned with that. But my question to you would be: Does light mean fast? Does heavy mean slow? Or, can you have a heavy boat that will perform and sail well and a light one that will not?

Skipr John,

Transpac race. First women doublehander, LA to Hawaii and back.