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Old 07-07-2018, 14:02   #1
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No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

Don't mean to highjack the following thread but my question in this title may be lost on that thread which I enjoyed and learned so much from...


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ed-203835.html

quick background: trying to buy a 27-28 Catalina or O' Day, or maybe a 30' Catalina..... the above surveyor: OK on the phone. He canceled the appointment because of my 24 hrs delayed response (DUH>>> I had to get the owner's OK)Ö. wants to reschedule for two weeks down the road.

QUESTION: At this point, I feel that I have a good average knowledge of boats and boat systems, would it be foolish to bypass the surveyor and make my own survey and deal accordingly with the seller??


Thanks for your input!
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Old 07-07-2018, 14:25   #2
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

It's usually beneficial to do your own pre-survey. If you know what you're looking at, then you can decide whether or not it's worthwhile to continue, rather than spending the time and $$ on a real surveyor for a clunker. Most insurance companies want a survey anyway.
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Old 07-07-2018, 14:30   #3
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
It's usually beneficial to do your own pre-survey. If you know what you're looking at, then you can decide whether or not it's worthwhile to continue, rather than spending the time and $$ on a real surveyor for a clunker. Most insurance companies want a survey anyway.


Thanks.... Would Boat US need a surveyor report for a $15,000 1985 boat with only a $300,000 liability to satisfy the marina requirements??
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Old 07-07-2018, 22:21   #4
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

Really depends on your confidence in making the survey yourself. On a relatively inexpensive boat (15K$) the wisdom of blowing a kilobuck on a survey is at least suspect. Do you think you might miss an issue that would cost more than that to remedy? We can't answer that for you, so some soul searching is needed.

Cat-27s are pretty simple boats and should be fairly easy to examine for serious issues. Evil pox, soft decks or ugly engines can be pretty easily seen, and many surveyors don't include the rig or engine in their efforts anyway.

What you loose is a neatly typed report that you can show the seller when trying to negotiate a lower price, based on defects in the boat... and possibly issues with insurance. Some insurers still require a survey, even for liability only coverage, some do not.

Tough decision for a rookie... hope we've been of help.

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Old 07-07-2018, 22:46   #5
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

IMHO it depends on your knowledge base and the quality of the surveyor. Personally I doubt I'd use a surveyor again. My experience with the two I've used in the past is way below average.
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Old 07-07-2018, 23:06   #6
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

The good thing about a surveyor is that he is not emotionally invested in the boat and should be able to set you straight on the boats condition.
I can see your point About it being hardly worth it for such a cheap boat. You should find out if you can get insurance without a survey? If thatís possible and you are confident of your abilityís then it is only you who is going to lose if the boats a lemon.......well maybe. You could sink her set up a beggars web page and end up with a bigger better yacht but thatís a different thread!
I survey boats here in Queensland and have seen a number of people get caught buying a boat without a survey. They then go to get insurance and realise they need a survey anyway. So I get called in and have to give them the bad news that the boat needs some serious work before it can be insured.
I can see Dales point, some surveyors are hardly worth using.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:44   #7
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

Decision points for determining whether you need to hire a pre-purchase survey, a post-purchase "insurance" survey, a focussed survey to address specific questions, or skip a professional survey and just do it yourself:


First point: What are your plans for the boat? Are you going to be parking it in your backyard for two years while you do a re-fit, or are your hoping it is turnkey ready to sail to Bermuda?



Second point: What is your skill-set and knowledge-base when it comes to boats, boat systems, repairs, and projects? How big is your toolbox (mentally as well as your actual physical toolbox)?


Third point: How significant a purchase is this relative to your overall financial situation? What's your level of risk tolerance for an investment to go bad?


Fourth point: What would cause you to decide to walk away from this purchase? How likely is it that a survey would reveal a deal-killing condition that you did not already have some suspicion about?
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:11   #8
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catamount View Post
Decision points for determining whether you need to hire a pre-purchase survey, a post-purchase "insurance" survey, a focussed survey to address specific questions, or skip a professional survey and just do it yourself:

First point: What are your plans for the boat? Are you going to be parking it in your backyard for two years while you do a re-fit, or are your hoping it is turnkey ready to sail to Bermuda?

Second point: What is your skill-set and knowledge-base when it comes to boats, boat systems, repairs, and projects? How big is your toolbox (mentally as well as your actual physical toolbox)?

Third point: How significant a purchase is this relative to your overall financial situation? What's your level of risk tolerance for an investment to go bad?

Fourth point: What would cause you to decide to walk away from this purchase? How likely is it that a survey would reveal a deal-killing condition that you did not already have some suspicion about?
Excellent points.

She will be refitted in my back yard, and just getting her there will cost thousands.

Odds are 100% I would completely miss any of dozens of disqualifying major flaws.

I'm just not qualified to judge whether or not the safety / structural aspects are intact, hull keel, sails mast etc. Offshore passages may be a distant goal, but a goal it is.

My toolbox needs building from the ground up, so I'd rather pay thousands more to start with a platform closer to being ready to go.

Funds are currently very limited, will increase over the years, so only want to buy now if it's a "miracle bargain". Big chunk of money, not willing to risk throwing it away. Survey is required to determine if that's the case.

Therefore, I want a pre-purchase survey, even if it takes over a grand, and even for a "free" boat.

I realize not an investment in the financial sense, but a long-term fast depreciating consumable.
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:24   #9
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

First, check with BoatUS to see if they would actually insure the boat. Many companies will not insure boats older than 30 years.
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:36   #10
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

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Originally Posted by ferrailleur View Post
Thanks.... Would Boat US need a surveyor report for a $15,000 1985 boat with only a $300,000 liability to satisfy the marina requirements??
I had no survey and have $500,000 liability on my boat through State Farm for $10/Month

With a Catalina 27 or 30 even if you did have some questions about what you were looking at, you could probably compare it to another since there were so many built. (Catalina 30 - 6430 built)

I was recently looking a Pearson 10M and was checking the mast step. it was aluminum and look quite good for an old boat but knew it had been a problem on these boats. I felt better when I discovered the original had been steel and would rust

There's lots data on Catalina 30's online which tell you of known problems
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:42   #11
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catamount View Post
Decision points for determining whether you need to hire a pre-purchase survey, a post-purchase "insurance" survey, a focussed survey to address specific questions, or skip a professional survey and just do it yourself:


First point: What are your plans for the boat? Are you going to be parking it in your backyard for two years while you do a re-fit, or are your hoping it is turnkey ready to sail to Bermuda?



Second point: What is your skill-set and knowledge-base when it comes to boats, boat systems, repairs, and projects? How big is your toolbox (mentally as well as your actual physical toolbox)?


Third point: How significant a purchase is this relative to your overall financial situation? What's your level of risk tolerance for an investment to go bad?


Fourth point: What would cause you to decide to walk away from this purchase? How likely is it that a survey would reveal a deal-killing condition that you did not already have some suspicion about?
I second all of the above. I used a surveyor prior to purchasing my less than $10K boat (I was living overseas, looking to purchase off the internet and wanted an "eye on the ground" perspective"). Boat was on the hard, included engine testing, but did not address standing rigging. Received a well written report, pictures and videos. As a result of the survey, the owner reduced to asking price by 4 times what the survey cost, so it was well worth it in my case.

Would I use a surveyor again? I'd say: Depends on the boat. I did hire a Rigger to survey the standing rigging after purchasing the boat just so I know what I have. The rest of the boat I could easily have surveyed myself had I been Stateside at the time.

Here's a cheesy video that I posted here a while back:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ow-197237.html

Best of luck!
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:49   #12
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Excellent points.

She will be refitted in my back yard, and just getting her there will cost thousands.

Odds are 100% I would completely miss any of dozens of disqualifying major flaws.

I'm just not qualified to judge whether or not the safety / structural aspects are intact, hull keel, sails mast etc. Offshore passages may be a distant goal, but a goal it is.

My toolbox needs building from the ground up, so I'd rather pay thousands more to start with a platform closer to being ready to go.

Funds are currently very limited, will increase over the years, so only want to buy now if it's a "miracle bargain". Big chunk of money, not willing to risk throwing it away. Survey is required to determine if that's the case.

Therefore, I want a pre-purchase survey, even if it takes over a grand, and even for a "free" boat.

I realize not an investment in the financial sense, but a long-term fast depreciating consumable.

You could probably buy a Catalina 27 for anywhere from $2,500-$6,500 and use it for years before you needed to make major repairs. And that boat would take you a long way, last many years, and you'd actually get to learn sailing now

There's a guy that's refitting a Bristol 27 and started a website before I bought my boat in 2011. He's still refitting it! It hasn't been in the water yet.

If you are not near the coast, buy something like a Lightning (or a thistle) which has main, jib, and spinnaker and start learning now. They come on trailers

Why buy something you have to totally rebuild?

LIGHTNING sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

THISTLE sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:16   #13
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

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First, check with BoatUS to see if they would actually insure the boat. Many companies will not insure boats older than 30 years.








even for liability only?
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:22   #14
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

If you can afford to lose the amount of the selling price, sure, survey it yourself. But, as has been said about those who choose to defend themselves in court, rather than pay an attorney: "They have a fool for a client."
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:26   #15
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

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even for liability only?
boat US did my 1963 columbia defender full coverage ( agreed upon value 3k)
for 180 a year no survey.
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