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08-07-2018, 21:40
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#46
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,192
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Shss! You mustn't talk like that - it's pure heresy :-0)!
I was watching YouToobs today of boats being broached and dismasted. Just horrifying how those broad-in-the-butt, twin rudder jobs have to fight to stay upright while the old Scowegian double enders just keep on keeping on while the grizzled old skipper's drinkin' tea and smokin' his pipe :-)
Cheers
TP
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09-07-2018, 09:58
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#47
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Gone sailing! Please don't tell our adult kids where we are!
Boat: Downeaster 38
Posts: 297
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
The boat broker where we are is married to the local boat surveyor.
Run!
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09-07-2018, 10:55
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: ashore in So Calif.
Boat: No more boat (my medical, not the boat's)
Posts: 1,453
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Not to hijack a spunoff thread, but since when do competent surveyors not at least inspect engines and rigging? They may qualify their observations, but in my experience, mostly from long ago, you are paying for a survey of the vessel, not just the hull.
__________________
"Old California"
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09-07-2018, 11:04
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#49
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by piberman
Quick walk through surveys are required for insurance purposes by “accredited surveyors”. Savvy buyers know the refit can easily command 50% of the purchase price. So they hire the best available surveyor and ask him to do a real thorough assessment. For most cruising boats that’s a $500 to $1000 outlay. If its too much consider another hobby.
PIBerman; author of “Outfitting the Offshore Cruising Sailboat” Paracay Publishers
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Excellent.
But at the low end, this is no longer true:
> the refit can easily command 50% of the purchase price
The $30,000 version may only cost $15,000 to get ready for offshore
The same model boat selling for $5,000 may cost $50,000 to get to the same standard, and take years to get there.
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09-07-2018, 11:09
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#50
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by piberman
Actually its the rig and electric/electronic systems that are the big money items in refit.
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Only if the hull, keel, mast, sails etc are sound.
Which for most requires a surveyor to determine.
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09-07-2018, 11:36
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#51
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225
Yes it is since many of the full time liveaboard cruisers don't sail at all but motor the ICW or simply hang out at a marina while their boat deteriorates and becomes covered with all sorts of crap
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My comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Fulltime liveaboard cruising, as a lifestyle
is very different from going sailing here and there.
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was simply a reponse to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivevon
I have to ask you - WHY?
…
IMHO, owning a boat is an indication of mild insanity. The only reason to own a boat is if you just have to.
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as giving a reason for ownership being required.
Living full-time on the hook and while **sailing** is my long-term goal, hope to pay a marina very rarely, maybe a few nights per year.*
In which case a sound boat to start with becomes more critical than other situations.
Context is critical for these "what is important" discussions.
* Unless perhaps going back to work in a high-wages urban area, but that would hopefully only be for a few months at a time.
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09-07-2018, 11:45
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#52
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225
Not sure where all this expensive talk concerning boats, refits, and electronics is coming from.
The OP just wants something along the lines of a Catalina 27 to cruise around the bay for a few years before he moves up
Most Catalina 27's won't need a refit. Most will already have VHF and depth and maybe GPS, and anchor and rode. If no GPS get a Suunto Compass for $20.00
https://www.backcountry.com/suunto-a...CABEgJGE_D_BwE
I have two of them plus GPS. I use mine to take bearings on the wind and ships to see if I will pass ahead etc when I'm away from them and know we will cross. Sometimes I'll use them instead of the GPS to do my 20 mile cross and get the general direction of 240 degrees
A ready to sail Catalina 27 can be had for anywhere between $4,000 - $9,000
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most coastal cruisers in the USA already have a GPS and don't know it or at minimum don't use it. Its on just about every cell phone now days. Heck I bought a tracfone for 10 bucks and downloaded a GPS app turn it on and your good to go .
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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09-07-2018, 11:56
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,460
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
most coastal cruisers in the USA already have a GPS and don't know it or at minimum don't use it. Its on just about every cell phone now days. Heck I bought a tracfone for 10 bucks and downloaded a GPS app turn it on and your good to go .
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OP's up the bay near Annapolis it appears. The Bay's only 5-10 miles wide most places up there.
All else fails he could use land marks and a compass for a while.
I wouldn't want a phone or handheld GPS. Mounted or attached to the boat is better. I mainly use mine to skirt a shoal when going in to anchor if necessary... low tide etc with no wave indications enough for me to go by
Some of the old Eastern Shore Watermen could read the bay/water so well back in the day they could go in the shallows without GPS
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09-07-2018, 12:09
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,460
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
My comment was simply a reponse to
as giving a reason for ownership being required.
Living full-time on the hook and while **sailing** is my long-term goal, hope to pay a marina very rarely, maybe a few nights per year.*
In which case a sound boat to start with becomes more critical than other situations.
Context is critical for these "what is important" discussions.
* Unless perhaps going back to work in a high-wages urban area, but that would hopefully only be for a few months at a time.
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It gets really slow being on the hook. The actual sailing and exploring the shore is much more fun .....like on weekends and vacations
I think many of your refit guesses are way too high.
It might be a good idea for you to get a boat and learn about some of this instead of so much internet. Plus you might not even like sailing and anchoring etc
The Bristol 27 I have now is maybe I think my 12th boat with 6 of those being sailboats two of which were new racing beach cats.
The other 6 or so were power boats for fishing and skiing from 14' - 17' made of wood, aluminum and fiberglass. Most were ancient. The first was a Chincoteague Scow with a 40 hp Johnson that you mixed a quart of SAE 30 Weight motor oil to 6 gallons of gas per the engine opening cover instructions. I used these in the widest part of the bay where it is about 30 miles wide and on seaside sometimes in the ocean if I was feeling lucky and the motor seemed to be working good on that particular day
Point is lots of my talk is from experience. I'm here to learn cruising from cruisers........as in ocean going even though I do argue with them a lot
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09-07-2018, 13:43
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#55
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
I have actually spent enough time out there on OPB to know what I want.
And much of my life without mains electric, running water or anyone around me speaking English.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225
The Bristol 27 I have now
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Maybe you know about how the Bristol 26 compares?
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-202876.html
If so, best to respond there.
Owner won't be back 'til the fall now.
But my current goal is saving up for a trailer to be able to bring a surveyed "miracle bargain" home if I find one.
A Tartan 27 I've my eye on still hasn't sold yet either.
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09-07-2018, 16:02
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,460
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
I have actually spent enough time out there on OPB to know what I want.
And much of my life without mains electric, running water or anyone around me speaking English.
Maybe you know about how the Bristol 26 compares?
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-a-202876.html
If so, best to respond there.
Owner won't be back 'til the fall now.
But my current goal is saving up for a trailer to be able to bring a surveyed "miracle bargain" home if I find one.
A Tartan 27 I've my eye on still hasn't sold yet either.
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The Bristol 26 is a totally different animal from what I have. How many do you see on Blue water boat lists?
You should get a boat on a trailer like a Lightning, Laser, or Thistle. Something that you can learn on and sail without spending years dreaming and refitting
There is a nice lightning (19') here for sale but I don't necessarily like the trailer.
Try not to get caught up in the big boat thing.
There's a guy at my dock selling his beautiful supped up Nauticat 33 for well over $100,000. He has rarely sailed it. He just installed a radar 2 years ago. The boat may have left the dock 10 times in 5 years
Btw, if you can handle the Lightning you will be able to handle a larger boat......while sailing at least. Docking is a whole new ball game.
They race Lightnings all over the USA and if you can deal with the start line craziness you can sail
https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...621569252.html
Start line craziness on the last type beach cat I used to race. These hulls and daggerboards though are a few rev levels up. And btw, it's not just sailing. it's about the correct mast prebend. Thin or thick battens, old or newer sails, and so on. Start line positioning and holding your boat still near the line as the clock ticks down and other boats are coming up to you within a foot or two either side....and not fouling or crossing the line too early
then there's just sailing for fun and exercise.
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09-07-2018, 16:45
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Lower Chesapeake Bay Area
Boat: Bristol 27
Posts: 10,460
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
FYI....that Nacra 17 has an 8 to 1 mainsheet block setup and probably 4 to 1 downhaul......plus mast rotator line. Spinlock on the spinnaker halyard
Best speed around 27 knots or so...on the old school boats I raced. These though are faster
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09-07-2018, 17:06
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: MD DC area/Annapolis/Baltimore
Boat: 1985 Catalina 27
Posts: 330
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds
Ferrailleur: You said: "QUESTION: At this point, I feel that I have a good average knowledge of boats and boat systems, would it be foolish to bypass the surveyor and make my own survey and deal accordingly with the seller??"
It's all in the cost/benefit analysis :-) I start from the premise that no man should ever "invest" more in a boat than he can afford to walk away from with a smile still on his face!
You speak of Catalina's and O'days, and it sounds as if you are looking at OLD boats. If so, particularly if you are looking at something so simple as, say, a Catalina 27, you should be able to find a serviceable vessel for five grand or thereabouts. No more than the cost of a coupla cases of good wine ;-)
What you get for that money is the "frozen snot" hull that may well outlast you, a standing rig that will require SOME maintenance, but is simple enuff that you can do it yourself, even if there are things involved that you would still have to learn about, a suit of sails - probably minimal - which may or may not be near the end of its life, but can in all likelihood be replaced with "new to you" items because old Cat 27s are so numerous. You will also get a collection of odds and sods, like seat cushions and fenders none of which are sophisticated and easy enuff to replace. In this class of boat you are not likely to have to evaluate the worth of gizmos like water makers and generators.
The biggie is the engine if an inboard is installed. In such a case, you essentially buy the engine. The rest of the boat is thrown in for free :-) For guidance: A NEW engine would cost 15 grand installed. A rebuild of an existing one, about half of that. If the engine is an outboard, a good secondhand replacement would cost about a kilobuck.
One of our members, "Boatpoker", is a professional surveyor. He has posted (somewhere here) a sample survey that I think is very good. I recommend that before you spend money on hiring a surveyor for a cheap boat, you print out Boatpoker's sample survey, take it with you to the candidate boat and DO YOUR OWN SURVEY using Boatpoker's as a guide. It will be hugely educational :-)!
As for dealing with the seller, that is a matter of strategy and tactics that you shouldn't even be thinking about until you've "qualified" the candidate boat guided by Boatpoker's sample which is - in essence - a checklist. If the seller won't let you be thorough unless you put down a deposit, BE SURE to make it small, and subject, inter alia, to being "refundable if vessel is found on inspection not to meet the buyer's requirements". In writing, of course.
As for insurance, no sensible underwriter will issue HULL coverage for this class of vessel. So what? As I said, you should be able to walk away from the "investment". Liability insurance is usually easy enuff to get. The underwriter that carries your house, apartment and/or car insurance will probably cover you via a "rider" on your existing coverage.
Cheers
TP
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It's all in the cost/benefit analysis :-) I start from the premise that no man should ever "invest" more in a boat than he can afford to walk away from with a smile still on his face!
Thanks a million TrentePieds
So much wisdom and knowledge....
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09-07-2018, 19:38
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#59
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225
The Bristol 26 is a totally different animal from what I have. How many do you see on Blue water boat lists?
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I am hoping if there were actually Con's out there people would state them plainly.
In this case there is very little information on them full stop, but all of what I've found so far is good,
except for Anne's comment there about a possible engine design issue, but she was not sure even which model it was.
In this case, I can only assume your answer is intended to convey that you don't know about the boat.
Or are people just trying to avoid hurting the feelings of their owners? Maybe ask over at sailing anarchy?
Your advice about a Laser is duly noted, thanks.
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09-07-2018, 20:23
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#60
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 4,808
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Re: No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrailleur
: trying to buy a 27-28 Catalina or O' Day, or maybe a 30' Catalina..... the above surveyor: OK on the phone. He canceled the appointment because of my 24 hrs delayed response (DUH>>> I had to get the owner's OK)…. wants to reschedule for two weeks down the road.
QUESTION: At this point, I feel that I have a good average knowledge of boats and boat systems, would it be foolish to bypass the surveyor and make my own survey and deal accordingly with the seller??
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It's your money, and ultimately, you'll have to decide for yourself. I can provide some things to think about, and my experiences.
Even a good surveyor will not eliminate risk, but will reduce risk. You, the buyer, have to decide whether it's worth it.
I did not get a survey when buying my boat for $5500 or whatever it was exactly. I was able to obtain liability insurance and hull insurance through State Farm at competitive rates without a survey.
I inspected my boat thoroughly prior to purchase and concluded that it had many defects, some of which I corrected, many of which I just don't give a **** about. When I sell in 2-3 years I will look back on this and realize I spent more on slip rentals and routine maintenance than I did purchasing the boat. I am using this boat to learn, have fun, and just **** around. I am not taking it to, say, Madagascar and back.
In that light it is not useful to me to have a formal report indicating that the light in the quarterberth doesn't work, none of the instruments work, the bow eye is undersized, the rig is past its sell-by date, some of the plastic is fake, and some of the pushpit stanchions Really Ought To Be Rebedded.
Do your homework, look at the boat with eyes open and a clear mind, remember that it is a buyers' market for $5k and $10k boats.
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