No survey needed?.... buy "as is where is"?

[TrentePieds]

Ferrailleur: You said: "QUESTION: At this point, I feel that I have a good average knowledge of boats and boat systems, would it be foolish to bypass the surveyor and make my own survey and deal accordingly with the seller??"

It's all in the cost/benefit analysis :-) I start from the premise that no man should ever "invest" more in a boat than he can afford to walk away from with a smile still on his face!

You speak of Catalina's and O'days, and it sounds as if you are looking at OLD boats. If so, particularly if you are looking at something so simple as, say, a Catalina 27, you should be able to find a serviceable vessel for five grand or thereabouts. No more than the cost of a coupla cases of good wine ;-)

What you get for that money is the "frozen snot" hull that may well outlast you, a standing rig that will require SOME maintenance, but is simple enuff that you can do it yourself, even if there are things involved that you would still have to learn about, a suit of sails - probably minimal - which may or may not be near the end of its life, but can in all likelihood be replaced with "new to you" items because old Cat 27s are so numerous. You will also get a collection of odds and sods, like seat cushions and fenders none of which are sophisticated and easy enuff to replace. In this class of boat you are not likely to have to evaluate the worth of gizmos like water makers and generators.

The biggie is the engine if an inboard is installed. In such a case, you essentially buy the engine. The rest of the boat is thrown in for free :-) For guidance: A NEW engine would cost 15 grand installed. A rebuild of an existing one, about half of that. If the engine is an outboard, a good secondhand replacement would cost about a kilobuck.

One of our members, "Boatpoker", is a professional surveyor. He has posted (somewhere here) a sample survey that I think is very good. I recommend that before you spend money on hiring a surveyor for a cheap boat, you print out Boatpoker's sample survey, take it with you to the candidate boat and DO YOUR OWN SURVEY using Boatpoker's as a guide. It will be hugely educational :-)!

As for dealing with the seller, that is a matter of strategy and tactics that you shouldn't even be thinking about until you've "qualified" the candidate boat guided by Boatpoker's sample which is - in essence - a checklist. If the seller won't let you be thorough unless you put down a deposit, BE SURE to make it small, and subject, inter alia, to being "refundable if vessel is found on inspection not to meet the buyer's requirements". In writing, of course.

As for insurance, no sensible underwriter will issue HULL coverage for this class of vessel. So what? As I said, you should be able to walk away from the "investment". Liability insurance is usually easy enuff to get. The underwriter that carries your house, apartment and/or car insurance will probably cover you via a "rider" on your existing coverage.

Cheers

TP

[SV Sailfish]

Originally Posted by Teknishn

Here's a cheesy video that I posted here a while back: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ow-197237.html

Hey Tek!

We love your videos!

[Clivevon]

Hi. Understand you are looking at buying your first boat for around $15000. I have to ask you - WHY?
Money is an issue or you wouldnt be looking at that price range. The question is: Do you want to go sailing? Or, do you want to mess around fixing up an old boat??
Fixing up an old boat (survey or no) is going to take a lot of money, or a lot of your free time, or maybe both. Probably more of both than you expect.
Whereas, if you are keen to go sailing and have a cheerful disposition, I bet there are lots of skippers not too far from you who would be happy to have you as willing crew. You could probably get all the sailing you want without ever having to own a boat at all.
Remember, while you are fixing up your old boat, you are NOT SAILING.

IMHO, owning a boat is an indication of mild insanity. The only reason to own a boat is if you just have to. Like, you have to be in control (or think you are, anyway).
In that case, welcome to the club, & good luck.

[john61ct]

Fulltime liveaboard cruising, as a lifestyle

is very different from going sailing here and there.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Fulltime liveaboard cruising, as a lifestyle

is very different from going sailing here and there.

Yes it is since many of the full time liveaboard cruisers don't sail at all but motor the ICW or simply hang out at a marina while their boat deteriorates and becomes covered with all sorts of crap

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Hi. Understand you are looking at buying your first boat for around $15000. I have to ask you - WHY?
Money is an issue or you wouldnt be looking at that price range. The question is: Do you want to go sailing? Or, do you want to mess around fixing up an old boat??
Fixing up an old boat (survey or no) is going to take a lot of money, or a lot of your free time, or maybe both. Probably more of both than you expect.
Whereas, if you are keen to go sailing and have a cheerful disposition, I bet there are lots of skippers not too far from you who would be happy to have you as willing crew. You could probably get all the sailing you want without ever having to own a boat at all.
Remember, while you are fixing up your old boat, you are NOT SAILING.

IMHO, owning a boat is an indication of mild insanity. The only reason to own a boat is if you just have to. Like, you have to be in control (or think you are, anyway).
In that case, welcome to the club, & good luck.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I bought my boat for $2,000 and spent a month getting it right (in 2011) and have been sailing it ever since. (it's my 12th I think since I was 17 years old)

No real repairs really except I did replace the old diesel with an outboard.

Why spend a lot of money on a boat until you know for sure whether it is the thing you really want to do.

There are hundreds of boats here maybe 1000's but most never leave the marina and many of those that do sail within a mile or two of the beach

When I cross the 20 mile bay I might see 2-5 sails offshore

[KiwiKen]

A boat is a hole in the sea into which you pour money.


Suppose you buy a yacht as a project that need work on it, and intend to rebuild/refit it in your own time, with the idea of the great sailing adventure.


If the hulk you buy costs $10,000, and you then devote 2 years of spare your time to refitting it, and another $30,000 of your money fixing all the known problems plus those you discovered, and at the end of the project the best market price your project vessel could hope to get on the market was $35,000, then you have not made a very smart buy, unless the $5,000 loss on your purchase is just petty cash of no account and you put zero value on your many hours of labour. This is unhappily not an uncommon scenario with boats and is unhappily a very common one with clunker used cars.
The worst case scenario is buying and putting more money and time into a hulk that will never be seaworthy.

The trouble is that this generally plays out for those who can least afford it.


There are some excellent websites that will give you guidance on carrying out your own pre- purchase inspection/survey with check lists
Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey


You should be looking at a boat from the basis of finding out why you should not buy it.

No falling in love with a boat at first sight, because this could be the same as getting married at first sight, and those who watched that dreadful reality TV series, know it usually ends in tears.


You inspection, possibly with the aid of a friend who is knowledgeable about boats can curb any misplaced enthusiasm, and allow you to sort the wheat from the chaff before paying to get a pre-purchase survey from a competent professional.


Before you undertake the project, if you are married, get your partner's concurrence, you don't want to be in the position of being on the receiving end of an ultimatum: "get rid of that hulk or I walk and take half your assets plus alimony for life"

[Mike Banks]

You only need ONE if it is a good one.

Some surveys are not worth a damn. NEVER trust a surveyor recommended by a broker. Ring up a marine insurance company and go by their recommendation--they knew all of them good and bad--and they certainly will not be recommending anyone doubtful. They will instead give you a list of the ones they know are good--and you pick your own from this list.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by KiwiKen

A boat is a hole in the sea into which you pour money.


Suppose you buy a yacht as a project that need work on it, and intend to rebuild/refit it in your own time, with the idea of the great sailing adventure.


If the hulk you buy costs $10,000, and you then devote 2 years of spare your time to refitting it, and another $30,000 of your money fixing all the known problems plus those you discovered, and at the end of the project the best market price your project vessel could hope to get on the market was $35,000, then you have not made a very smart buy, unless the $5,000 loss on your purchase is just petty cash of no account and you put zero value on your many hours of labour. This is unhappily not an uncommon scenario with boats and is unhappily a very common one with clunker used cars.
The worst case scenario is buying and putting more money and time into a hulk that will never be seaworthy.

The trouble is that this generally plays out for those who can least afford it.


There are some excellent websites that will give you guidance on carrying out your own pre- purchase inspection/survey with check lists
Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey


You should be looking at a boat from the basis of finding out why you should not buy it.

No falling in love with a boat at first sight, because this could be the same as getting married at first sight, and those who watched that dreadful reality TV series, know it usually ends in tears.


You inspection, possibly with the aid of a friend who is knowledgeable about boats can curb any misplaced enthusiasm, and allow you to sort the wheat from the chaff before paying to get a pre-purchase survey from a competent professional.


Before you undertake the project, if you are married, get your partner's concurrence, you don't want to be in the position of being on the receiving end of an ultimatum: "get rid of that hulk or I walk and take half your assets plus alimony for life"

Project?

You can buy Catalina 27's for $4,000-$6,500 that need very little and are ready to sail...…(even cruise which these days seems to be motoring the ICW and anchoring)

It's not that big of a deal. Btw, the $9,000 Catalina 27 in the link below is in mint condition and could sail to the Bahamas tomorrow.....

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...628803478.html

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...633163248.html

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...632900769.html

[Dymaxion]

My boat cost me 6000. No survey done. I downloaded and online surveying guide, 6$, and drove 800 miles to check out the boat. I bought the boat, and after a months work had it in the water. I also found CF at the same time and read as much as I could in the construction and refit forum. CF proved to me that I was sh!t lucky and had also bought from two very honest guys. My boat is 28', simple systems on board and I'm sailing inland presently. I was prepared for more sweat equity, and to walk away from the 6K if I'd screwed up. The online guide was extremely helpful, but nothing trumps experience. Would I do it again that way? Not if I was investing over say 15K, and definitely not if I had any intention of full seasons of coastal sailing, much less offshore.

[piberman]

Quick walk through surveys are required for insurance purposes by “accredited surveyors”. Savvy buyers know the refit can easily command 50% of the purchase price. So they hire the best available surveyor and ask him to do a real thorough assessment. For most cruising boats that’s a $500 to $1000 outlay. If its too much consider another hobby.

PIBerman; author of “Outfitting the Offshore Cruising Sailboat” Paracay Publishers

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by piberman

Quick walk through surveys are required for insurance purposes by “accredited surveyors”. Savvy buyers know the refit can easily command 50% of the purchase price. So they hire the best available surveyor and ask him to do a real thorough assessment. For most cruising boats that’s a $500 to $1000 outlay. If its too much consider another hobby.

PIBerman; author of “Outfitting the Offshore Cruising Sailboat” Paracay Publishers

I've never needed a survey for insurance on any of my boats .

[piberman]

You’ll learn nothing of value form an oil analyses if it was recently changed. Ditto the transmission. Actually its the rig and electric/electronic systems that are the big money items in refit. Not the engine. As long as its running.

The most important monies ever spent on a boat other than buying a life raft and SAT phone are spent on hiring the very best surveyor you can find. Followed by the best mechanic available.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "The most important monies ever spent on a boat...are spent on hiring the very best surveyor you can find."

That is certainly true if you are spending real money. But if you are buying a twennyfivehunnert buck Cat27, just to get your feet wet???


When you are doing that, cost/benefit analysis sez you are better off just taking flyer. It you win you've save a grand, if you "lose" you consider the twennyfinehunnert tuition fees for learning to survey a boat with all the benefits that flow from that. THEN - after you've paid you tuition and done your learning you are fit to buy a better boat and put it in the slip you had to have for the turkey :-)


Something that EVERY buyer of a cheapie needs to consider is disposal cost. Disposal is the owners responsibility any way you slice it! Someone in this forum said that "wooden boats are on life support from the moment they are launched. Plastic boats have to be ASSASSINATED!" There is truth to that. Taking the chainsaw to a "frozen snot" boat and paying the dumping fee at the landfill might set you back another twennyfivehunnert. Adding that to the purchase price of a Cat27 you can, if you are handy, keep her serviceable for quite a while :-)!


TP

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "The most important monies ever spent on a boat...are spent on hiring the very best surveyor you can find."

That is certainly true if you are spending real money. But if you are buying a twennyfivehunnert buck Cat27, just to get your feet wet???


When you are doing that, cost/benefit analysis sez you are better off just taking flyer. It you win you've save a grand, if you "lose" you consider the twennyfinehunnert tuition fees for learning to survey a boat with all the benefits that flow from that. THEN - after you've paid you tuition and done your learning you are fit to buy a better boat and put it in the slip you had to have for the turkey :-)


Something that EVERY buyer of a cheapie needs to consider is disposal cost. Disposal is the owners responsibility any way you slice it! Someone in this forum said that "wooden boats are on life support from the moment they are launched. Plastic boats have to be ASSASSINATED!" There is truth to that. Taking the chainsaw to a "frozen snot" boat and paying the dumping fee at the landfill might set you back another twennyfivehunnert. Adding that to the purchase price of a Cat27 you can, if you are handy, keep her serviceable for quite a while :-)!


TP

then there are the good plastic ones my 63 columbia will be sailing long after your mid 80's benehuntalina in the dumpster.