New to the Blue. Books and Advice?

[mrktstrtmyhm]

Hey all,

I know most of you are seasoned sailors and I'm poking in here to see what ya'll can offer.

Answer me this:

With all the different makes and models of boats out there, some being significantly more expensive than others of the same size, how does one go about differentiating between them all and ultimately picking one that suits his preferences? Is there reading material out there about the history of monohulls or is it simply all about exposure?

[boatpoker]

Your choices are strictly limited by budget and how you will actually use the boat. Tell us that and you may get some cogent answers. In the meantime learn as much as you can about the system on boats and how to inspect them. No matter what type of boat you buy I'd suggest you start here Marine Survey 101

[mrktstrtmyhm]

Nice link, I'll bookmark that.

As for my budget, I've got 10-80k to work with and I'm searching for a blue water liveaboard type vessel. I'd almost prefer to do some work on the boat myself as to get to know it better so my preferred boat would be something used, 35'+ with some fix ups needed but not 30+ years old. I don't know if I should drop 70k on my first boat, or get a smaller, cheaper, fixer upper to grow my sea legs on first.

[UNCIVILIZED]

What boatpoker said. Plus, crew/sail on as many boats as you can. Racing, day sailing, chartering, deliveries... There are a LOT of opportunities out there for enthusiastic young crew who are willing to learn. And every hour spent racing, is probably worth 5x that of most other sailing, if not 10x. Do some searching here on the forums on "gaining experience", & other similar terms. It'll give you a lot of ideas.

Also, go to lots of boat shows, as well as boat browsing. And be up front with brokers, saying that you don't yet know what you want, & are hoping that the broker can expand your knowledge base enough to let you decide on a boat. Possibly one that he's selling.

Then, if you read my post in the below linked thread, it'll help you a lot in terms of getting ideas about what's important to you, your realistic budget, ditto on your sailing goals. It's not a short read, so don't try & take it all in at once. And definitely read what some of the other authors mentioned in it have written, including some who help to place people with boats professionally.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2206626


PS: If you live anywhere near the water, keep an abridged sea bag full of sailing gear in the car. So that you never miss an opportunity to go sailing when they come up, due to not having the right clothes & gear handy. And maybe keep a bottle of rum in with it for the owner/skipper, as a thanks, as well as for socializing.

[mrktstrtmyhm]

Awesome info. Thanks a lot! I'm surrounded by hundreds of miles of barren desert for the time being but once I find myself back along the coast I will take some of your advice..especially about the sea bag with rum!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Given that you're land locked, & this applies even if you weren't, there are lots & lots of sail training, & sail simulator programs available. Ditto on racing, navigation, etc. Many of them can be had free, such as Open CPN, a navigation program which is likely the most common one out there.


The other "trick" is that you could buy or build a land sailer. Think of it as an iceboat, but with wheels.

[hamburking]

[QUOTE=mrktstrtmyhm;2438975
With all the different makes and models of boats out there, some being significantly more expensive than others of the same size, how does one go about differentiating between them all and ultimately picking one that suits his preferences? [/QUOTE]

Consider cars as an analogy...there are many makes and models...there is no right answer. Is a Honda better than a Toyota? Some people choose by price, hence all the Ford Fiestas out there. Also varies by region...not too many citroen or opals around here, but maybe elsewhere they are abundant. Jaguar makes a good car, if you can afford it. A Hummer might be nice, if you can afford the gas. If you've got kids, its got to be a minivan, right? Or maybe you need an SUV for your 2km driveway?

In terms of sailboats, Tanzers, Mirage, Whitby, C&C and CS where all manufactured near my home (Lake Ontario) so these old boats are common here. Its hard to find newer boats like Hunter, Beneteau or Catalina here, since they were manufactured south of the border.

There are brands like Grampian that can be had for free.

I suggest you simply take a walk at your local marina, and try to identify every sailboat there. You'll see the local trend pretty quickly. And you'll find that most owners are pretty happy to talk about their boats...and trash talk about their neighbour.

[Dave22q]

Originally Posted by mrktstrtmyhm

Nice link, I'll bookmark that.

As for my budget, I've got 10-80k to work with and I'm searching for a blue water liveaboard type vessel. I'd almost prefer to do some work on the boat myself as to get to know it better so my preferred boat would be something used, 35'+ with some fix ups needed but not 30+ years old. I don't know if I should drop 70k on my first boat, or get a smaller, cheaper, fixer upper to grow my sea legs on first.

If your budget is 80k You need to buy under 40. Fix up and fitting out expenses are almost always a lot more than you expected and you need a substantial reserve for major major surprises.

[NevisDog]

While I was far from marinas, I read, and read. A couple of useful books that help differentiate boat types:
20 Affordable Sailboats to take you anywhere - Nestor
The Modern Cruising Sailboat - Doane
Good advice in the appendices on how to differentiate.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

If your budget is 80k You need to buy under 40. Fix up and fitting out expenses are almost always a lot more than you expected and you need a substantial reserve for major major surprises.

Here ya go... $45,000 usd asking (actual price is in cdn). You may even be able to negotiate a little bit.

Roberts 34 "Misty Blue II" - Full refit blue water live-aboard | sailboats | Oshawa / Durham Region | Kijiji

You're welcome.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

What boatpoker said. Plus, crew/sail on as many boats as you can. Racing, day sailing, chartering, deliveries... There are a LOT of opportunities out there for enthusiastic young crew who are willing to learn. And every hour spent racing, is probably worth 5x that of most other sailing, if not 10x. Do some searching here on the forums on "gaining experience", & other similar terms. It'll give you a lot of ideas.

Also, go to lots of boat shows, as well as boat browsing. And be up front with brokers, saying that you don't yet know what you want, & are hoping that the broker can expand your knowledge base enough to let you decide on a boat. Possibly one that he's selling.

Then, if you read my post in the below linked thread, it'll help you a lot in terms of getting ideas about what's important to you, your realistic budget, ditto on your sailing goals. It's not a short read, so don't try & take it all in at once. And definitely read what some of the other authors mentioned in it have written, including some who help to place people with boats professionally.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2206626


PS: If you live anywhere near the water, keep an abridged sea bag full of sailing gear in the car. So that you never miss an opportunity to go sailing when they come up, due to not having the right clothes & gear handy. And maybe keep a bottle of rum in with it for the owner/skipper, as a thanks, as well as for socializing.

I would second everything above, except the advice to go racing...
IMHO, as you are a beginner, if you will be accepted at all to a racing team, the jobs that will be assigned to you would be menial (like pulling on a spinnaker halyard to raise it). You may learn about the importance of teamwork and doing things in proper sequence etc. However not much about the sailing proper or how to liveaboard, reef, read forecasts etc.
Better stick to other parts of the post: charter, sail with friends, go to sailing course, frequent a sailing club and generally spend time on the water.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by meirriba

IMHO, as you are a beginner, if you will be accepted at all to a racing team, the jobs that will be assigned to you would be menial (like pulling on a spinnaker halyard to raise it).

I think you are overly optimistic. Stay off my foredeck! New crew without credentials are rail meat. Your job there is to scramble quickly and in an organized fashion across the cabin top when tacking.

Regardless, I maintain racing is a good way to learn a lot very quickly. From the rail you can see and hear the cockpit (AHITB) and foredeck. Ask good questions after the race and you'll learn. Good questions will impress the owner/skipper/tactician and they'll eventually move you to a grinder spot. You'll learn more. You'll see a lot. You'll hear the helm and the tactician talking. More opportunities for more good questions after the race (not underway).

As Captain Ron says, "Do a good job and you'll get a better job." Perhaps you'll be able to trim the jib on the way to or from the race course. Foredeck captain might take you under his or her wing and teach you how to rig lines forward.

I learned to sail racing dinghies. Not a day on the water goes by that I don't apply what I learned and practiced in a 30 year racing career.

For cruisers: light air and running low on fuel? Racing experience helps. Wind is up, a lot? Racing experience helps. Heavy traffic entering an inlet? Racing experience helps. Trying to maintain situational awareness? Racing experience helps.

Besides, it is fun.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I think you are overly optimistic. Stay off my foredeck! New crew without credentials are rail meat. Your job there is to scramble quickly and in an organized fashion across the cabin top when tacking.

Regardless, I maintain racing is a good way to learn a lot very quickly. From the rail you can see and hear the cockpit (AHITB) and foredeck. Ask good questions after the race and you'll learn. Good questions will impress the owner/skipper/tactician and they'll eventually move you to a grinder spot. You'll learn more. You'll see a lot. You'll hear the helm and the tactician talking. More opportunities for more good questions after the race (not underway).

As Captain Ron says, "Do a good job and you'll get a better job." Perhaps you'll be able to trim the jib on the way to or from the race course. Foredeck captain might take you under his or her wing and teach you how to rig lines forward.

I learned to sail racing dinghies. Not a day on the water goes by that I don't apply what I learned and practiced in a 30 year racing career.

For cruisers: light air and running low on fuel? Racing experience helps. Wind is up, a lot? Racing experience helps. Heavy traffic entering an inlet? Racing experience helps. Trying to maintain situational awareness? Racing experience helps.

Besides, it is fun.

As far as I am concerned the OP can go racing (if anyone will admit him to a racing team). However, I think that to gain anything from the experience (be it on the rail or pulling on the halyard) he needs to understands the basics.
I have spent some time racing (and coaching racing teams), if we had a 'green' new team member, I liked to send him to learn basic sailing skills on a dinghy as a first step.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by meirriba

As far as I am concerned the OP can go racing (if anyone will admit him to a racing team). However, I think that to gain anything from the experience (be it on the rail or pulling on the halyard) he needs to understands the basics.

I agree with you. As I have "aged out" of running foredeck (skill and experience only outweighs youth and strength up there for so long) and my reputation for keeping boats moving offshore builds I find myself invited along as "guest tactician" or boat captain on distance races. Skippers and owners often ask what they can buy to be more competitive. My answer is "lessons."

Newbies can certainly benefit from the basics. Even experienced crews can benefit from some professional coaching and practice.

[UNCIVILIZED]

In many decades of sailing, much of it racing, & to include virtually all aspects of being on the water professionally, I've yet to see new crew who are eager to learn, not be able to find a ride on a racing boat.
Yes, you'll have to ask around. But if you walk the docks/visit the yacht club starting an hour or two before the boats leave the dock, you will find a spot, period. As there are always boats who have crew who cancel at the last minute. And other boats who are just happy to make a new friend, & introduce them to sailing.

You may start at the bottom of the ladder in terms of jobs, but then again, odds are you'll get a chance to do a lot of fun ones as well. Especially prior to & after the race. From setting up the foredeck, & learning what goes where. When certain lines are used, & why. Various methods of tacking & gybing. Ditto on setting spinnakers & jibs. Reefing. And even some helm time, both under power, & under sail.

With the big perk being, the more you do; both sailing, & socializing in said circles, the more invites you'll get for the future. Geometrically so. Including doing deliveries, where you'll get to do some of everything. And I've had some of the best times of my life have been when delivering boats: The sailing, the close bonds you form, giving & getting 1-on-1 instruction. Learning to navigate, & rules of the road. How to take care of a diesel. Handling emergencies (training for them). Sail selection, plus how they're built, as well as cared for, & repaired.

Is it cruising, no. But 90-something percent of what you learn transfers directly over to cruising. For example, even tactics. Since when racing those who best play the wind & currents tend to finish at or near the top. And who doesn't play the wind & tides when cruising?
Plus, as stated by others, it Free & FUN! Including post race parties. As well as those held at crewmembers homes.

PS: Many, many racing crew have their own personal boats which they don't race. And usually they'll be quick to invite you out sailing for non-racing type sailing. Which is more sedate, does cover some cruising specific skills, & gives you sailing time where the "instructors" will outnumber you by 5:1, easily.

Also, there are casual race series, like Wednesday night Beer Cans. Where folks take things a lot less seriously, so a newbie often gets the chance to do all sorts of jobs, typically with a "coach" on his or her shoulder.