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Old 01-08-2019, 13:44   #31
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

The Islander looked pretty darned good. The owner was on board and varnishing his brightwork. All the running rigging was coiled and in its proper place. He was fully prepping the boat to race tomorrow. I like that. It wasn't sitting lonely on the hard uncared for.

He gave me full run of the boat. I opened everything openable.

I found a few things. There was a bit of rot in the stringers that hold up the floorboard. I saw that problem and its fix in another blog. He told me that he had problems with cabin compression and how he fixed. (he fixed it by putting spacer at the top and fixing the fiberglass, the usual fix is where the compression post meets the keel)

The plywood bottoms of the open storage bins on the inside of the combing were rotted

There was water in the bilge. He said it comes through leaks surrounding a through hull fitting on the starboard side and from rear toe rail, he had removed and rebedded all the ones in front 2/3's of the boat.

There was some damp around the stuffing box. He told me he had it repacked about 5 years ago.

He also told me he had the cutlass bearing replaced 7 years ago, because the marina bent the propeller shaft. (concern?)

One other item that came up is he told me that early on in his ownership (27 years) there was damage to the keel. He said it was "agate" and had it repaired and no problems since. I tried to get to the bottom of what he meant, aggregate, cement,??

In any event he hasn't seemed overly concerned with it, he has raced to hell and back with it.

On the other hand some of the realities of buying this are hitting me.

1) my wife is starting to feel overwhelmed with things she needs to get done and isn't quite as gungho as she was a little while ago.

2) I found a slip for the remainder of the season for $850, but they are likely not to have a place for me in winter. Jeesh thats a problem

3) Because I haven't sailed in a while and haven't handled a boat this big, annual insurance is likely to be close to $1,200 a year for a $6,000 boat and they require a marine survey.
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Old 01-08-2019, 14:25   #32
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

For a $6000 boat do you need anything but liability insurance?
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Old 01-08-2019, 14:37   #33
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

Fair point on the liability only. I didn't think to ask. That cuts into that issue.

I guess I'm starting to freeze up over some of the particulars. Its a lot of scrambling around to get just another 6 or so weekends of sailing.

That being said. I'll probably pay a couple thousand less for getting it at the end of the season.

Any feedback on the other stuff?
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Old 01-08-2019, 15:15   #34
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

My Opinions, ad seriatim and in italics:

The Islander looked pretty darned good. The owner was on board and varnishing his brightwork. All the running rigging was coiled and in its proper place. He was fully prepping the boat to race tomorrow. I like that. It wasn't sitting lonely on the hard uncared for.

He gave me full run of the boat. I opened everything openable.

So far so good, but trivial

I found a few things. There was a bit of rot in the stringers that hold up the floorboard.

What you call “stringers” are properly called “floors”. What you call “floorboard” is called “the sole” Rot in the floors in a "frozen snot" boat is NOT serious in and of itself, although it can be lots of work to repair, and it is often indicative of far worse to come.

I saw that problem and its fix in another blog. He told me that he had problems with cabin compression and how he fixed. (he fixed it by putting spacer at the top and fixing the fiberglass, the usual fix is where the compression post meets the keel)

Sounds like he shimmed the fibreglas deck where the heel of the mast steps on the deck. GRP is likely cracked under the heel and may let in rainwater which would account for rot in the nether edges of the adjacent bulkhead. In this particular boat the proper fix can a pain because the "compression post" is a bulkhead or incorporated into a bulkhead.

The plywood bottoms of the open storage bins on the inside of the combing were rotted

Probably ingress of fresh water via the improperly repaired compression post collapse. Rot is NOT "stoppable" except by cutting out and burning infested plywood. "Gitrot" will not catch it all.


There was water in the bilge. He said it comes through leaks surrounding a through hull fitting on the starboard side and from rear toe rail, he had removed and rebedded all the ones in front 2/3's of the boat.

If either the hull fitting itself or the surrounding GRP is weak, you have a problem that could sink the boat in a hour or two if the fitting/grp gives way. This would be an immediate “haul and fix”. The water could also have come from an improper keel fix or even from the stuffing box.


There was some damp around the stuffing box. He told me he had it repacked about 5 years ago.

Probably immaterial. Just restuff the box.


He also told me he had the cutlass bearing replaced 7 years ago, because the marina bent the propeller shaft. (concern?)

Yes. Straigthening a shaft is difficult and expensive. A new shaft is also expensive but a better "fix". If the shaft is not straight you'll have a horrible vibration that can damage many other things, not least the engine/gearbox. What engine does the boat have?

One other item that came up is he told me that early on in his ownership (27 years) there was damage to the keel. He said it was "agate" and had it repaired and no problems since. I tried to get to the bottom of what he meant, aggregate, cement,??

You did say it's an Islander 32 II? If so it will be a finkeel made from lead bolted up under the hull, I believe. I don't believe that the “II” had an encapsulated keel, so, yes, a grounding is cause for concern in that if the bolts/floors have been sufficiently weakened, the keel can drop right off while under way.

In any event he hasn't seemed overly concerned with it, he has raced to hell and back with it.

On the other hand some of the realities of buying this are hitting me.

1) my wife is starting to feel overwhelmed with things she needs to get done and isn't quite as gungho as she was a little while ago.

IMO a VERY serious problem. Nothing to do with boats, particularly, but with the psychology of partmentships. Few women remain content for long if housekeeping (“nesting”) budget is seriously constrained by “frivolities” such as boat ownership.

2) I found a slip for the remainder of the season for $850, but they are likely not to have a place for me in winter. Jeesh thats a problem

Where you are the season is short, so is the slip rent $425/month during season? What will be your yard fees for the “off” season. Will there be a slip available for you for next season, i.e. can you at this time enter a RENEWABLE moorage agreement for future seasons?

3) Because I haven't sailed in a while and haven't handled a boat this big, annual insurance is likely to be close to $1,200 a year for a $6,000 boat and they require a marine survey.
Why would you carry more than liability insurance on a $6K boat. The marina/yard will only be interested in whether you have Liability coverage. “Hull” risks can be your own look-out. If you have a reasonable relationship with your broker/underwriter they may add include this liability coverage as a rider on your house insurance.

So we are back where we were: You need to have slack cash to the tune of the purchase price PLUS about $10K to put this together sensibly. If your lady is getting cold feet - LISTEN TO HER! NO $6K boat is worth the risk of domestic discord. Go join a sailing club instead and sail on wellkept OPBs

TP
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:05   #35
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
My Opinions, ad seriatim and in italics:

The Islander looked pretty darned good. The owner was on board and varnishing his brightwork. All the running rigging was coiled and in its proper place. He was fully prepping the boat to race tomorrow. I like that. It wasn't sitting lonely on the hard uncared for.

He gave me full run of the boat. I opened everything openable.

So far so good, but trivial

I found a few things. There was a bit of rot in the stringers that hold up the floorboard.

What you call “stringers” are properly called “floors”. What you call “floorboard” is called “the sole” Rot in the floors in a "frozen snot" boat is NOT serious in and of itself, although it can be lots of work to repair, and it is often indicative of far worse to come.


Thanks for clarifying my notes. I'd post photos if Photobucket still allowed free service as they did in the past. From what I can see the work is well within my skill set.

I saw that problem and its fix in another blog. He told me that he had problems with cabin compression and how he fixed. (he fixed it by putting spacer at the top and fixing the fiberglass, the usual fix is where the compression post meets the keel)

Sounds like he shimmed the fibreglas deck where the heel of the mast steps on the deck. GRP is likely cracked under the heel and may let in rainwater which would account for rot in the nether edges of the adjacent bulkhead. In this particular boat the proper fix can a pain because the "compression post" is a bulkhead or incorporated into a bulkhead.


Yes, it would be a PITA. I looked directly at the spot where the compression posts rests on the keel. I did not see any notable degradation of the spot. The way he explained his repair of the mast step made sense to me and he explained a modification to prevent rain water from entering in that spot that made sense, but what do I really know.

The plywood bottoms of the open storage bins on the inside of the combing were rotted

Probably ingress of fresh water via the improperly repaired compression post collapse. Rot is NOT "stoppable" except by cutting out and burning infested plywood. "Gitrot" will not catch it all.


I wasn't clear in my explanation. Theses are open cubbies on each side of the cockpit. They are open to full exposure. They didn't appear to be structural. That could be a straight replacement.

There was water in the bilge. He said it comes through leaks surrounding a through hull fitting on the starboard side and from rear toe rail, he had removed and rebedded all the ones in front 2/3's of the boat.

If either the hull fitting itself or the surrounding GRP is weak, you have a problem that could sink the boat in a hour or two if the fitting/grp gives way. This would be an immediate “haul and fix”. The water could also have come from an improper keel fix or even from the stuffing box.


The leak appeared to be in the rear starbord side of the boat, just below the waterline. Just enough to be soaked up with a sponge every several days. I'll have to dig around more to see if I can find it.

There was some damp around the stuffing box. He told me he had it repacked about 5 years ago.

Probably immaterial. Just restuff the box.


Yep

He also told me he had the cutlass bearing replaced 7 years ago, because the marina bent the propeller shaft. (concern?)

Yes. Straigthening a shaft is difficult and expensive. A new shaft is also expensive but a better "fix". If the shaft is not straight you'll have a horrible vibration that can damage many other things, not least the engine/gearbox. What engine does the boat have?


Palmer P60 engine. He had a new oil filter on it. I need to look at the oil in both the engine and the transmission. I didn't feel like climbing into the lazerette to do it that day.

One other item that came up is he told me that early on in his ownership (27 years) there was damage to the keel. He said it was "agate" and had it repaired and no problems since. I tried to get to the bottom of what he meant, aggregate, cement,??

You did say it's an Islander 32 II? If so it will be a finkeel made from lead bolted up under the hull, I believe. I don't believe that the “II” had an encapsulated keel, so, yes, a grounding is cause for concern in that if the bolts/floors have been sufficiently weakened, the keel can drop right off while under way.



Its a Islander 30 MK2. I was confused about his explanation of the keel since I knew the 32 was lead.

Would you pay for a haul and marine survey?


In any event he hasn't seemed overly concerned with it, he has raced to hell and back with it.

On the other hand some of the realities of buying this are hitting me.

1) my wife is starting to feel overwhelmed with things she needs to get done and isn't quite as gungho as she was a little while ago.

IMO a VERY serious problem. Nothing to do with boats, particularly, but with the psychology of partmentships. Few women remain content for long if housekeeping (“nesting”) budget is seriously constrained by “frivolities” such as boat ownership.

We are on the same page on wanting this. Our budget can handle this as long as we are mindful and not slip into crazy land, or buy something that is a throw away of $6,000.

2) I found a slip for the remainder of the season for $850, but they are likely not to have a place for me in winter. Jeesh thats a problem

Where you are the season is short, so is the slip rent $425/month during season? What will be your yard fees for the “off” season. Will there be a slip available for you for next season, i.e. can you at this time enter a RENEWABLE moorage agreement for future seasons?

Typical slip fees are $1800 for the season. Winter storage is $2.85/sq.ft. $150 for cradle, $60 for power washing. Winterizing is separate.

There will be some work involved in finding a place. If the seller has a spot for winter we can use that. Which side of the State we find the boat will impact next year's location. A friend of ours just bought a marina on the east side and said he'd find a spot. If its the west side we might have to scramble a little.


3) Because I haven't sailed in a while and haven't handled a boat this big, annual insurance is likely to be close to $1,200 a year for a $6,000 boat and they require a marine survey.
Why would you carry more than liability insurance on a $6K boat. The marina/yard will only be interested in whether you have Liability coverage. “Hull” risks can be your own look-out. If you have a reasonable relationship with your broker/underwriter they may add include this liability coverage as a rider on your house insurance.

I'll check.

So we are back where we were: You need to have slack cash to the tune of the purchase price PLUS about $10K to put this together sensibly. If your lady is getting cold feet - LISTEN TO HER! NO $6K boat is worth the risk of domestic discord. Go join a sailing club instead and sail on wellkept OPBs

TP
On another note we are going to look at a Spirit (Finch) 28 tomorrow. We shall see.

One item of cold feet is that I'm considering running off with a 28-30 foot boat that I have to maneuver into around docks and into slips. I was awesome at it when I was 18. That's a long time ago. Plus all the changes in equipment, rigging and navigating since then.

I think I can figure every thing out. The maneuvering is what concerns me. I'm sure the seller will give me a couple of lessons. But i'll have to solo sometime.
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:55   #36
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

Quote: “Winter storage is $2.85/sq.ft”

I can stay in the water all year, so I'm not sure how this works where you are, but a cradle for a 30-footer would obviously have a footprint of about 30 x 10 feet, call it 300SqFt @2.85 = $855. It that for the entire off-season? That seems dirt cheap to me.

As for maneuvering, it really isn't a problem. I am “alongside” as opposed to a “finger slip”. I chose that because my wife is a total novice. I have to come up a 40 foot wide faiway, then turn the boat through 180º, and park 'er starboard side to. To do that, you just rely on the “prop walk” to make the boat do a pirouette around her natural pivot point. Dead easy. Departing with about 6 feet of “air” twixt me an the boats ahead and aft of me I just “spring” 'er out into the fairway. Again dead easy. You can do it too :-).

Often, in other marinas, I get assigned to “finger slips”. Again, quite easy. I like to come into finger slips going astern because the prop walk has been dealt with as you slide into the slip, and a burst in forward to stop 'er doesn't alter her heading. Similarly, going out of the slip, the prop walk doesn't give you any surprises as you begin to move, because you are moving forward instead of astern, and by the time the stern is clear of slips and bollards you simply enlist the prop walk to work in your favour. Sometimes in really awkward places you might have to pirouette the boat through 270º, but it's all very simple.

When you get that far, and if you'd like me to, lemme know and I'll explain to you how to do it.

As for the Finch: Nice little boat, in many ways similar to TrentePieds. There is only so much you can do with 28 or 30 feet :-) Good basic numbers for a novice. Designed in the IOR idiom, which means that she is a racer rather than a cruiser, but as the old saying goes :”What you've never known, you'll never miss”.

In terms of boat handling she is characterised by being fat in the waterline beam, hard in the bilges, i.e. little she has little deadrise. Therefore if you heel her much beyond twelve or fifteen degrees, she will rise up on her bilge, pull her rudder out and broach. That can be extremely dangerous to people aboard, as well as costly in gear, so sail her “flat”. As built, the boat was tiller steered rather than wheel steered, and in a baby boat such as this, that is, IMO, a distict advantage over wheel steering because of the much better “feel” it gives you.

Again because she inclines to the racing side of the design spectrum, the headsail is unconscionably big for a cruiser and her mainsail unconscionably small. That makes for a boat that has to be sailed every second of the way, and one that will easily “take charge”.

But given your budget, it is likely that a racer is all you can get for your money, so best to learn to handle the inherent deficiencies of racing boats when it comes to cruising.

Cheers

TP
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:39   #37
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

Welcome.
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Old 04-08-2019, 06:34   #38
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

Well, we are officially boat people. We shook hands on the Spirit 28 last night.

I am sure I'll be back frequently in the upcoming months and probably years. Thanks for the help so far and for help in the future.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:08   #39
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

Welcome aboard from SW Florida.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:39   #40
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

There is a reason why sailboats the size you are looking for are called day sailers. We used to own a
Tanzer 22. It was a fun fun boat to sail. Was great for going out for the day to sail, stop and anchor and have a swim and lunch. Sail some more and then head back to shore to go home at the end of the day.
Smaller boat have a tendency to rocking horse. Way more then larger boats. We now have a 35 footer and use it for over nighters. We spend every Summer weekend in it in Georgian Bay.
The 22 foot Tanzer was kept at a marina we didn’t bother trailering it. Having to cart a boat around wait to launch it at a ramp. Then at the end of the tip reload and hall home get tiring very quietly. Much more convenient to just drive to the boat and go.

We also have a Shark 23 foot on trailer boat that is for racing. We keep it at the club. Even being so closely stored near the water it’s still a chore to launch it.
The choice of a 28 footer sounds good.


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Old 05-08-2019, 13:45   #41
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Re: New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

I'm pleased with our choice. The boat is well laid out. The owner made some modifications to allow the benches to be turned into a roughly a queen sized bed.

I think the boat will make a nice day cruiser. We can hop up from South Haven to Saugatuck, Holland, day by day and back again.
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