New to forum/New to Cruising/Rusty to Sailing

[LittleWing77]

What TrentePieds said.

Keep in your mind the difference between a cruiser and racer. Also, I know 3 people currently trying to get rid of their C&C 27s. You're right not to go there. I can't remember. Are you up this way? Another you might want to consider is a Northern 29 - knock off of the S&S designs during the IOR period. Old but solid cruising boats, if maintained.

Note that you will find a lot of Hunters and Catalinas out there. They are production boats and moderate sailers, good for local cruising.

My sailing buddy just sold his Catalina 32 with great regret. It didn't point worth a damn, but was great for trips to the 1,000 Islands and Niagara-on-the-Lake, stuff like that.

Keep plugging away! Your boat is out there!
Warmly,
LittleWing77

[Tmacmi]

Still researching and learning.

This weekend I'm probably going to look at a 1976 Sabre 28. Despite it not quite reaching 30 there is a lot of good talk out there about the boat. One thing that concerns me is its conversion to a 200 watt solar system. That is something I'm not likely to use a lot and I don't want to debug later.

I'm also curious about a 1974 Islander 30 MkII. I can't find anything about them on the internet. He's asking $6,000 which makes my "too good to be true" nose tingle.

There was also a S2 9.2 c (the one with the aft berth) for sale. I just can't bring myself to consider it. Not very pretty to my eyes.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Tmacmi

Still researching and learning.

This weekend I'm probably going to look at a 1976 Sabre 28. Despite it not quite reaching 30 there is a lot of good talk out there about the boat. One thing that concerns me is its conversion to a 200 watt solar system. That is something I'm not likely to use a lot and I don't want to debug later.

I'm also curious about a 1974 Islander 30 MkII. I can't find anything about them on the internet. He's asking $6,000 which makes my "too good to be true" nose tingle.

There was also a S2 9.2 c (the one with the aft berth) for sale. I just can't bring myself to consider it. Not very pretty to my eyes.

The Islander 30 MKll is a decent boat. IIRC it has a long fin but a spade rudder. BTW, I looked at one for $5-6K during the recession. It had new main and genoa, new furler, new main cover, new rigging, new 3 cyl Yanmar, older dodger. The sails were from the orient but were new. Heck of a deal. he did say it had blisters though. I almost bought it to part it out, but too much trouble getting rid of a hull!

[TrentePieds]

Quote: " I can't find anything about them on the internet"

Wot??? The Internet is FULL of posts on the Islander30 MkII! Just google "Islander 30 II specifications" and you will get reams of posts. What makes you think that $6K is too good to be true?

Please reread my previous posts, #5 and #15. When you go looking at these little boats - the smallest size of VIABLE cruising boats, IMO - bear in mind that they are COMMODITITES. The are only so many ways, a very few, that a yacht designer can arrange the interiors (because people are the size they are, and there are those among us who insist on carrying FOUR people in a 30-footer), and there are only so many ways - basically only two - that a yacht designer can arrange the rig on such little boats. So in terms of design, there is nothing to choose between them. And in terms of the bling, you are, at your stage, better off without it.

Thus the only thing you really have to worry about is structural intergrity of the hull. Everything else is consumable and/or disposable, and will need replacing by and by in any event. That includes the rigging and the sails. The six grand is what we call "sunk cost". You will never recover that money, so do yourself a favour and minimize the sunk cost. Use what you have left over for the OWNERSHIP EXPENSES. As I said - about 10 grand a year regardless of what make of 30-foot boat you buy. If you buy one with lotsa bling already aboard, you can go to 15 grand a year for ownership expenses.

TrentePieds

[Tmacmi]

Thanks for the response and don't worry TrentePieds, I am paying attention to your posts. I understand there are only so many ways to thread the needle.

I'm trying parse the relatively limited number of boats that are on the market, with some concept of what work will lay ahead of me. The info I've been trying to find are beyond the basic facts. I'm trying to dig into places where they typically go bad and the fixes surrounding them so I know what to look for (i.e. history of compression post problems, history of blistering).

I'm good at fixing things, I just want a sense of what I'm signing up to fix.

[TrentePieds]

Now, you are making sense :-)!

I think I gave you a reference to Surveying 101, by our member BoatPoker who is a professional surveyor. Get that under your belt before you actually go look at a boat. If you follow BP's instructions you will get as good a pre-purchase survey as you would get by paying a surveyor, and you'd save anywhere from 5Cs to 1K that you will then have to put towards the purchase price.

When you come back from your inspection you will have your list of things you consider deficiencies. You are then in a position to ask us SPECIFIC questions, e.g. "How do you repair a rotten compression post in an Islander 30 II" . Once a member explains that to you, as someone surely would, you can then decide whether it's worth your while.

You are not likely to incur the expense of hauling for inspection. Why waste the 5Cs? If the candidate boat has no water in the bilge, it's not gonna sink on you. You watch it, of course, but you can save inspection for blisters and delamination till you do haul for bottom paint. IF attention, other than the paint, is required, then ask us, preferably giving us a few photos, and someone will tell you how to do the repair.

The key to it all is that to benefit the most from CF you have to ask FOCUSSED questions rather than diffuse, general questions :-)

All the best

TP

[Tmacmi]

TP,

I couldn't find a reference to Surveying 101. Please send. I am going to look at the Islander tomorrow night before he heads out to Putin Bay senior sail regatta.

That will be light evening reading.

As a side bar is blistering a bad enough issue to take a boat out of consideration?

[TrentePieds]

Here you go :-)

Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection

As for blisters: Yes and no. You say you're good a fixing things, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Remember that "frozen snot" hulls are monocoque, i.e. they don't have discrete parts that can fail and sink the boat such as a sprung garplank can in a wooden boat.

If you ding a glassfibre hull, the gel-coat which is the waterproof part of the hull, may break and let water seep into the actual lay-up which consists mainly of "chopped" bits of glass filaments ("strands) oriented randomly in the resin. Once into the lay-up water will "wick" along the strands and weaken the layup. But it won't cause the lay-up to fail catastrophically. If you catch it early, the water will only have wicked a small distance, and the bit you have to grind out and replace will be relatively small. Leave the damage for a long time, and you'll have to grind up a commensurately greater piece of hull and "rebuild" it with new lay-up. Tedious and generally nasty, but really very simple, so if you are handy and don't mind learning new skills, Bob's yer uncle.

One of the realities of boat ownership is that sooner or later you will have to dispose of the boat. There are only four means of doing so: 1) Sell it. 2) give it away. 3) abandon it 4) Scrap it. You will be stuck with the ten grand a year ownership costs until you do one of those three! Going backwards: 4) Scrapping is done with a chainsaw, and the dump fees and disposal of all the bits and pieces will set you back say 15 grand. 3) Abandoning a boat in some bay or other will cause the "authorities" to confiscate the boat and scrap it. They will then hold you responsible for the costs which will be higher than if you do it yourself. 2) There are organizations that will take serviceable boats for free against a receipt for taxation purposes. Whether that works in you jurisdiction, I don't know. Five years ago we bought TP at 35 years old for about 1/20th of new construction cost from such an organization, and for about 1/3 of what last month's insurance evaluation stated to be her value based on "similar boats in similar condition for current sale" 1) In this market boats generally sell for about 60% of "listing price" when sold through a broker. That is just another way of saying that brokers overvalue boats by 170% when picking a listing price.

The justification for that long schmeer is that you should be aware of those things before you commit to boat ownership, particularly if you are a novice with no maritime tradition behind you.

Cheers

TP

[fxykty]

Wow, what a bunch of ‘realistic’ anti dog rants. We sailed and camped a bunch of small keelboats (18-28 feet) with a medium sized border collie (can you say ‘energetic’?), my two parents and me from 5 through 12 (and growing fast).

Yes, it’s tight. Yes, the dog smells, especially when wet. Yes, there’s no privacy. Yes, the toilet is a bucket or portable at best - the one boat that had a proper marine head flushed directly overboard. Yes, you’re in full view when on the bucket, or behind a curtain and still full smell and sounds. Yes, the best sleeping bunks are likely the two settees, so you sleep on your own. That’s life on a small boat. Just like in a back packing tent.

But the dog will quickly learn about the edges and while sailing you’ll either settle him in the cabin (risking puke/poop everywhere when/if he gets sick) or in the cockpit. In our boat that was the preferred option, but it meant we didn’t have much of a cockpit well for our feet when sailing. Oh well, you learn to work around that.

The most dangerous thing that happened is that our dog several times leaped for the dock after a boisterous sail, before we were berthed. Once we almost crushed her and the next time we pulled away and had a ‘fun’ time doing a dog overboard exercise in a marina. After that we leashed her to the traveller whenever we were close to land.

Her claws put lots of holes into our various rubber dinghies. Eventually we used an indoor/outdoor carpet to cover everything, but the best solution was having her swim ashore and back to the boat. We eventually taught her to run to the foredeck before shaking. Usually.

If you consider that you’re camping rather than cruising then a smaller boat and a large dog is just fine. The only real requirement is a decent berth or berths for sleeping for you and your wife. Anything else is luxury. You can always bring a tent for your son - if he takes the dog with him ashore for the night you may even get some alone time. Otherwise, abstinence makes the, err heart, fonder.

[Tmacmi]

Well....that surveying 101 is sobering. Anyway not giving up.

[TrentePieds]

Good on! Don't give up, but DO go into these things with your eyes open :-)!

TP

[JPA Cate]

fxykty,

Thanks so much for the Border Collie story. They are such lovely dogs! Smart, hyper, loving, what more could you ask?

But the OP has a Labrador Retriever, also lovely, loving dogs, mostly not nearly so intelligent as the Border Collies, but at 70 lbs., and on a 27 footer, not as easy to adapt.
Truly. Lighter, quicker, smarter beasts have an easier time of it. Honestly, I'd recommend a kitty for the next pet: they generally adapt quite well to life aboard, and some are fierce guardians, as well, which was a surprise to me. Anyhow, I stand by my original recommendation, let the large son babysit the Lab, and find the starter boat that makes the heart go pitty-pat.



Ann

[Tmacmi]

I need some bench marking about pre-season maintenance time. (know the answer is "depends" or "as much as you want to" but I need a rule of thumb)

I've never owned a fiberglass boat. Our family owned a wooden boat for all my life and I know that intimately. Preseason maintenance it was 40 to 60 hours over 4-6 weekends.

What should I expect for a fiberglass boat? The reason I am asking, is because we are considering keeping the boat on Lake Michigan about 2 hours away.

Any feedback?

[Nicholson58]

Check out the used boats at Torresen Marine in Muskegon. They have a large brokerage. Travel the marinas around Detroit p, Chicago, Milwaukee and the many along the Michigan west coast.

[TrentePieds]

There cannot be a simple answer to the question you ask. It does, indeed, depend! It depends very much on how much effort you put in in the fall when you decommission. It depends on whether your boat has a winter cover, it depends on how much teak and other brightwork you have, it depends on how high your own standards as to appearance are, it depends on whether you've left your clobber aboard over the winter and thus generated mould and other nast, and on, and on, and on.

What you need to do is to think it through, systematically, and WRITE yourself a "routine order". Which you then follow. So begin to get your mind around this now while you DON'T have a boat, and therefore nothing better to do. Thinking this through systematically and referring as you go to "Surveying 101" will begin to make your choice of boat a competent one when the time comes. Get out your pencil and paper - or your wordprocessor/spreadsheet - if you prefer. IMAGINE, systematically, what every little task may be that you'll have to perform to DECOMMISSION the boat before the frost comes. List these tasks. Assign an "estimated time to perform" to each one. The sum of those times will not only be the time you will have to invest in getting the boat ready for winter, it will ALSO be the time required to get her ready for splashing in the spring, except that in the spring you need to allow extra time for bottom-painting. As I've said before: Small cruisers a commodities, so what you IMAGINE you have to do on a boat of one make is in all realistic respects what you would have to do on every other make of boat. Ain't nothin' to choose! Most of what you need to do is fairly cheap, but on a 30-footer (in salt water, anyway) you need to budget $500 for materials and supplies for the bottom painting job.

TP