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16-09-2021, 00:47
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#181
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 318
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanPatrick
I once read that pirate crews were very progressive for their time. Captains were voted for, female crew were treated as equals and sometimes became captains, there were strict but fair rules with corresponding rewards and punishments, etc.
Of course, I read all of this in some magazine in the checkout lane of a grocery store, so ...
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I've read some of alleged credible books on the subject and one primary source called "A General History of The Pirates" written in the 1800's. What's written does support the notion that Pirate Ships were protodemocratic states generally. Captains could be voted out and they actually had Disability plans.
There's a a good STARS Channel mini series called "Black Sails" that mixes historically accurate characters and situations with RLS's classic "Treasure Island". Worth a look if you like boats, hot chicks and action scenes. In that order.
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16-09-2021, 01:29
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#182
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Alboran Sea / Spain
Posts: 941
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian007
What's written does support the notion that Pirate Ships were protodemocratic states generally. Captains could be voted out and they actually had Disability plans.
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There's a reason for this: Pirates lived on the edge and every error of judgement meant death in some various ways, none pleasant. They got caught, it was the noose. They didn't rob enough ships, it was hunger.
Add to this that pirates were mostly crew or escaped slaves. Very few officers who knew about charts and navigations became pirates. So they tried to figure out things while going along and the successful ones survived in that environment.
What developed wasn't as much as a democracy than more a microcosm based on consensual decision making. Everyone was gambling with his life every day. If all agreed than Bob is the one who best know how to find land again, then Bob was the navigator / captain. If Bill was so ferocious when boarding that the rest felt their survival-chance in battle was better with him leading, he'll be commanding the boarding party. And if Jeff was always grumpy and annoying without contributing enough so the rest were willing to deal with him, he went over board.
This applies to rabble-type pirates. The state-sponsored buccaneers with letters of marque (mostly to rob the Spanish goods on the way to Europe) like Francis Drake worked more like Mercenary companies. Little democracy to be found there either. Very unsurprisingly, they were more efficient than the rabble pirates.
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16-09-2021, 01:58
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#183
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV
It wasn't that long ago, that you could walk directly on an airplane, no metal detectors required. Friends and family could accompany you, etc...
But these days, seems like the world lives in fear and paranoia...
I started my travels in 1976. As above, for the most part it was pure bliss. Officials were genuinely glad to see you and give you a helping hand.
My 2c is that the world has been overtaken by political correctness, fear mongering, greed, avarice, gender reveals, school shootings, blah, blah, etc, etc.
Let's face it, it's hard to think, say or do anything these days without stirring up controversy...arguments...hatred....etc...etc..
This "pirate flag" topic is typical, there is no consensus here whatsoever...none....zero....squat...
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And before that people didn’t travel at all
There were no “ good old days “
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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16-09-2021, 02:13
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#184
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 2,123
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian007
I've read some of alleged credible books on the subject and one primary source called "A General History of The Pirates" written in the 1800's. What's written does support the notion that Pirate Ships were protodemocratic states generally. Captains could be voted out and they actually had Disability plans.
There's a a good STARS Channel mini series called "Black Sails" that mixes historically accurate characters and situations with RLS's classic "Treasure Island". Worth a look if you like boats, hot chicks and action scenes. In that order.
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Yes, the pirates along the US east coast and Caribbean who flew the Jolly Roger weren’t all the general purpose rapers and pillagers they are often depicted to be. I’ve read a lot of history from that time and most started out as legitimate privateers with the approval of their governments to prey on enemy countries merchant shipping. When truces were declared between previously warring countries they became pirates and broadened their targeting to merchant ships of all nationalities. Their goal was to get rich from stealing ships cargoes, preferably gold, silver, and other valuables bound for Europe, not harassing civilians who didn’t have any significant wealth to offer them. Most pirates were there voluntarily and had a vote in how their ship was run and who would serve as captain. When they took a ship or ships cargo, if they needed more crew they would offer “jobs” to some of that ships crew. Compare this with the decidedly undemocratic British Navy habit of sending out press gangs in their own country to kidnap locals and basically enslaving them aboard a ship or forcing crew from an opposing countries ship to join them against their will. Even though the Jolly Roger pirating era was a long time ago and only lasted over a short period, I think they were an interesting group and were a lot more nuanced than they are often depicted to be in fiction and movies. Other, more recent pirates, not associated with the Jolly Roger, have been much more dangerous to civilians than the Jolly Roger pirates of 300 years ago were. So I don’t think it’s very accurate or fair to associate the sins of the murderous pirates of more modern times with a flag that they never flew. I’m not suggesting that the pirates of 300 years ago never harmed anyone but their goal was to seize treasure and cargo from merchant ships, not harassing civilians. In more recent times the Jolly Roger has become a lighthearted symbol of rebellion from authority or as a party flag. Loud, drunken, late night partiers flying this flag may seem pretty obnoxious when you’re looking forward to a peaceful evening aboard, but they have no greater connection to any bad behavior that took place under this flag than anyone else does. And by flying this flag they certainly are not minimizing the sins of or showing support for the deadly pirates who have taken civilians hostage in more recent years.
So, if I see a Jolly Roger being flown from a fellow cruisers boat about all it probably means is that the boats owner wants to think of him or herself as a bit of a rebel, and possibly a drunken party may be happening later so if I want a quiet evening I’ll anchor elsewhere, or maybe I’ll break out my own Jolly Roger and join in the fun, arghhhhh! It’s all in good fun and it’s a big mistake to take these flags at all seriously.
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16-09-2021, 02:32
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#185
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 318
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt
There's a reason for this: Pirates lived on the edge and every error of judgement meant death Add to this that pirates were mostly crew or escaped slaves....
What developed wasn't as much as a democracy than more a microcosm based on consensual decision making. Everyone was gambling with his life every day. If all agreed than Bob is the one who best know how to find land SNIPPED
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Consensual decision making is pretty much the seminal and fundamental characteristic of a democratic state. So you're actually supporting the premise of what's written largely in non fictional accounts of the Golden Age of Piracy. Now I suppose you'll tell me you meant something else about "consensual decision making" or whatever
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16-09-2021, 02:35
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#186
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Need alternative to Pirate flag
I’m not sure why anyone except loud drunken insensitive louts on boats would fly the skull and crossbones.
So if you are one of those , feel free to fly it, not that you’d listen to anyone else anyway
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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16-09-2021, 02:44
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#187
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 318
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsailjt
Yes, the pirates along the US east coast and Caribbean who flew the Jolly Roger weren’t all the general purpose rapers and pillagers they are often depicted to be. I’ve read a lot of history from that time and most started out as legitimate privateers with the approval of their governments to prey on enemy countries merchant shipping. When truces were declared between previously warring countries they became pirates and broadened their targeting to merchant ships of all nationalities. Their goal was to get rich from stealing ships cargoes, preferably gold, silver, and other valuables bound for Europe, not harassing civilians who didn’t have any significant wealth to offer them. Most pirates were there voluntarily and had a vote in how their ship was run and who would serve as captain. When they took a ship or ships cargo, if they needed more crew they would offer “jobs” to some of that ships crew. Compare this with the decidedly undemocratic British Navy habit of sending out press gangs in their own country to kidnap locals and basically enslaving them aboard a ship or forcing crew from an opposing countries ship to join them against their will. Even though the Jolly Roger pirating era was a long time ago and only lasted over a short period, I think they were an interesting group and were a lot more nuanced than they are often depicted to be in fiction and movies. Other, more recent pirates, not associated with the Jolly Roger, have been much more dangerous to civilians than the Jolly Roger pirates of 300 years ago were. So I don’t think it’s very accurate or fair to associate the sins of the murderous pirates of more modern times with a flag that they never flew. I’m not suggesting that the pirates of 300 years ago never harmed anyone but their goal was to seize treasure and cargo from merchant ships, not harassing civilians. In more recent times the Jolly Roger has become a lighthearted symbol of rebellion from authority or as a party flag. Loud, drunken, late night partiers flying this flag may seem pretty obnoxious when you’re looking forward to a peaceful evening aboard, but they have no greater connection to any bad behavior that took place under this flag than anyone else does. And by flying this flag they certainly are not minimizing the sins of or showing support for the deadly pirates who have taken civilians hostage in more recent years.
So, if I see a Jolly Roger being flown from a fellow cruisers boat about all it probably means is that the boats owner wants to think of him or herself as a bit of a rebel, and possibly a drunken party may be happening later so if I want a quiet evening I’ll anchor elsewhere, or maybe I’ll break out my own Jolly Roger and join in the fun, arghhhhh! It’s all in good fun and it’s a big mistake to take these flags at all seriously.
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Thanks, that all squares with what I've read as well. I never thought much of pirates because I relied on the Disney and Hollywood versions which are generally stupid. Once I cracked a few books I realized there is much more to the legacy, at least during the Golden Age-- presumably that's the intended focus of this thread, not Somalis or those nice guys in the Sulu Sea etc.
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16-09-2021, 02:51
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#188
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Alboran Sea / Spain
Posts: 941
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian007
Consensual decision making is pretty much the seminal and fundamental characteristic of a democratic state. So you're actually supporting the premise of what's written largely in non fictional accounts of the Golden Age of Piracy. Now I suppose you'll tell me you meant something else about "consensual decision making" or whatever
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Nope. Democracy is when the minority accepts and cooperates with the decision of the majority and the majority let the minority live in exchange.
Consensual decision making is wider, only decisions everyone agrees on and support are accepted. Voting can be used, but doesn't have to. The consequence is that a group can be stalled until the consensus is achieved and usually a lot of social pressure is exerted to reach a consensus in useful time. If someone is blocking the consensus too often, he usually ends up being ejected from the group.In the pirate's case, by force like marooning them on an island or tossing them over board.
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16-09-2021, 03:43
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#189
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Sponsoring Vendor
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl.
Boat: FP Athena 38' Poerava
Posts: 3,984
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAFO
Or AC/DC.
"I don't always listen to AC/DC, but when I do, so do my neighbours!"
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I have a CD of 60 minutes of great cowboy yodeling. It's amazing how peaceful my anchorage is in just one hour.
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16-09-2021, 03:54
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#190
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 318
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt
Nope. Democracy is when the minority accepts and cooperates with the decision of the majority and the majority let the minority live in exchange.
Consensual decision making is wider, only decisions everyone agrees on and support are accepted. Voting can be used, but doesn't have to. The consequence is that a group can be stalled until the consensus is achieved and usually a lot of social pressure is exerted to reach a consensus in useful time. If someone is blocking the consensus too often, he usually ends up being ejected from the group.In the pirate's case, by force like marooning them on an island or tossing them over board.
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Nope. Democracy in base form is "Rule of the many" or "rule of the people". There is no requirement for minority vote, democratic decisions are often unanimous-- without opposition. Either way records show captains were often voted in with majority rule not unanimity.
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16-09-2021, 04:00
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#191
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Boat: Swarbrick S-80
Posts: 899
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellie
I have a CD of 60 minutes of great cowboy yodeling. It's amazing how peaceful my anchorage is in just one hour.
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At least you’ll be free from the Martians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Attacks!
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16-09-2021, 05:06
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#192
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,852
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
I’m not sure why anyone except loud drunken insensitive louts on boats would fly the skull and crossbones.
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Well one other reason is to advertise there are kids aboard - y'know, in case there are other kids in the anchorage looking for friends. Assuming you can work out ( and are not offended by) the depiction of a traditional nuclear family.
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17-09-2021, 03:58
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#193
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: NE Florida
Boat: 1980 Endeavour 32
Posts: 871
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
I’m not sure why anyone except loud drunken insensitive louts on boats would fly the skull and crossbones.
So if you are one of those , feel free to fly it, not that you’d listen to anyone else anyway
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I feel like it. And I don't get loud or drunk. My wife says I'm sensitive enough for a guy. My friends don't consider me a lout. My children even listen to me.
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17-09-2021, 05:24
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#194
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixnax
"agree it's the same a showing a nazi or sea shepherd flag"
Seriously? In your world those are equivalents? Wow.
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True. Sea Shepherd are much more closely affiliated with pirates.
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17-09-2021, 05:27
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#195
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: Need alternative to Pirate flag
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman
Yes, pirates were nothing but criminals
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It's a thin line between "pirate" and "privateer" often that line moved after they set sail.
A privateer was effectively a sanctioned militia on water. They were generally part of a war effort...problem was when 3 weeks after setting sail for the Caribbean, Britain and Spain decide to cease hostilities and suddenly, with no notice, a privateer becomes a pirate when they attack a Spanish galleon.
The pirates of the jolly roger flags are characters of those 300-500yrs ago. No modern Somali pirate is flying the flag.
So I guess I'm going to say...yes, the OP is just getting old and cranky.
Are you offended by the Minnesota Vikings football team...because you know Vikings were pillaging marauders...We could come up with hundreds of examples of historical groups or figures who have had the edges rounded by time. No one is going into actual piracy because they fly the flag.
What surprises me is how many people on this thread sat on a stick and never removed it. Must be great fun to be around.
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