My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I guess it pays to shop around, or buy a powerboat. $70k can buy a lot of diesel especially in Duty free Montenegro.

About 10 years for us based on the last years usage at Australia's expensive prices.
About 30 years at asia prices.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TJ D

First off, I hope that I wasn't misunderstood by anybody. I wasn't suggesting that some folks were getting ripped off or being foolish with their money,

The SC52 is probably a decent comparison for Rocket Science. Remember that the water ballast adds a lot of righting moment, loading the sails more than the displacement alone would indicate.

Also, our square footage for air draft is very high, as we're using a fat head main and have a very long retractable sprit (Her Jspin measurement is 32')

But, you're right, RS is very small compared to most 55's. She was built as a performance boat first. Interior volume was probably not considered even a little bit in her design.

I believe that the sail cloth that I specified 70/30 carbon/technora, 23,000 dpi is pretty close to what a boat of double our displacement would order. I went quite heavy. Certainly not a lightweight mylar disposable sail.

The point was mostly to illustrate that where you buy your equipment really matters, seeing as how I was quoted wildly different numbers for essentially identical sails, and nearly double for the same re-rig that Hall did for us.

Thanks for the compliment on the boat!

TJ

TJ and I have exactly the same sails, and m2 for m2, I paid about the same for them. The cloth, with 70% carbon, is very expensive. But it's the best money I ever spent on the boat, although they cost more than my first house did. I have nearly 20,000 miles on them and they are still basically like new. Amazingly shapeable. Good sails remind you why we sail.

[thomm225]

I had several technora mainsails back in the day when I was racing beach cats, but for a cruising boat, I'm thinking dacron sails work just fine.

If you do want to spend the extra money though for technora/carbon sails, that's great, but definitely not needed

Same with carbon fiber masts. I had a couple and destroyed one. It broke in half (with spinnaker up in strong winds) This probably wouldn't have happened had it been an aluminum mast.

I learned this after racing for many years.

It's all about the sailing knowledge of the skipper, not the sails. (or type mast)

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I had several technora mainsails back in the day when I was racing beach cats, but for a cruising boat, I'm thinking dacron sails work just fine.

If you do want to spend the extra money though for technora/carbon sails, that's great, but definitely not needed

Same with carbon fiber masts. I had a couple and destroyed one. It broke in half (with spinnaker up in strong winds) This probably wouldn't have happened had it been an aluminum mast.

I learned this after racing for many years.

It's all about the sailing knowledge of the skipper, not the sails. (or type mast)

Well, I'm not sure I'm in agreement with too much of this, except that the higher end stuff isn't strictly 'needed'. Of course it's not needed. You could probably get from A to B with almost anything hoisted.

First, to sails. Why a sail made of carbon laminates? Well, it's lighter, stronger, holds it's shape over it's entire wind range, and it holds it's shape for the life of the sail. They don't get bagged out. They have the same foil until they finally fail.

As far as carbon masts-there's really one reason for it. You get the same (or more) strength as aluminum for WAY less weight aloft. I bend my mast a lot when depowering the main, too, and I believe that it's a better material for bendy sticks.

To a lot of folks, this doesn't matter. To your normal mom and pop out cruising the milk run, it doesn't matter, either. But, if you're a keen sailor, and recognize the substantial benefits of reducing weight aloft. Carbon is very much your friend.

And, every time I'm sailing downwind and pass a cruising boat with an overly heavy rig, rolling like crazy, while I'm deep reaching with very little roll, I'm reminded of why weight aloft is best kept to a minimum. It makes a huge difference in ride, and also sailing efficiency. The main is kept full, instead of spilling pressure in wild, gyrating rolls.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I had several technora mainsails back in the day when I was racing beach cats, but for a cruising boat, I'm thinking dacron sails work just fine.

Except that you and me are in completely a different size of yacht which means that Dacron will work well for us, particularly if its a half decent quality cloth.

Scale it up for a 55ft yacht and the weight of cloth required so it doesn't stretch to quickly becomes very heavy. I can remember failing to raise the main on one 55ft yacht because the main weighed more than I did. This is why the larger yacht owners are choosing laminates.

That said I may well look closely at laminates next time for the Genoa, or the vectron / hydranet options.


Pete

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Together with £150-£200 worth of antifoul paint and the same for the lift out plus minor items each year probably does equal 10% for a 31ft yacht.
Pete

I agree. I think for smaller boats, 10% of new price is probably a usable number. For the 28', boat I just sold, and just looking at maintenance items vs upgrade:

Lift-out, winter storage, and bottom paint (doing the sand/paint myself): $1500/yr

Standing rigging (taking down and putting back up myself): $1,200/10 is $120/yr

Genoa and main replaced every five years: $3,500/5=$700

Without any of the little bits and pieces, or the engine, we're already up to $2,300/yr or about 3% of what I think a new boat would cost. The single biggest annual cost is the haulout and storage, which is why I believe Kenomac's point that bigger boats are cheaper as a % of ownership. In my yard, he'd pay a lot less as a % of new than I would, given that haulout and storage is charged by the foot.

Of course, I take solace in the fact that my 10% is still a much smaller absolute number than Ken's 1%! I'm also switching to a trailerable tri, which will eliminate my single biggest annual cost, and give me a more fun boat!

[TonyBe]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Scale it up for a 55ft yacht and the weight of cloth required so it doesn't stretch to quickly becomes very heavy. I can remember failing to raise the main on one 55ft yacht because the main weighed more than I did. This is why the larger yacht owners are choosing laminates.

Someone I know replaced his main this year (and yes it was very expensive) with a new North 3di Endurance sail.

It was 125 square metres (sorry, don't know what this is in feet). The old sail, without battens, weighed 120kg and the 3di weighs 80kg. Also the new battens were a lot lighter as well and he reckoned he's saved about 55-60kg (120-130lb) weight in total.

That made me stop and think as my wife weighs about 60kg so, essentially, with his old sail he had the weight of my wife clinging to the mast half way up compared to the new sail.

That's quite a bit of difference.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Well, I'm not sure I'm in agreement with too much of this, except that the higher end stuff isn't strictly 'needed'. Of course it's not needed. You could probably get from A to B with almost anything hoisted.

First, to sails. Why a sail made of carbon laminates? Well, it's lighter, stronger, holds it's shape over it's entire wind range, and it holds it's shape for the life of the sail. They don't get bagged out. They have the same foil until they finally fail.

As far as carbon masts-there's really one reason for it. You get the same (or more) strength as aluminum for WAY less weight aloft. I bend my mast a lot when depowering the main, too, and I believe that it's a better material for bendy sticks.

To a lot of folks, this doesn't matter. To your normal mom and pop out cruising the milk run, it doesn't matter, either. But, if you're a keen sailor, and recognize the substantial benefits of reducing weight aloft. Carbon is very much your friend.

And, every time I'm sailing downwind and pass a cruising boat with an overly heavy rig, rolling like crazy, while I'm deep reaching with very little roll, I'm reminded of why weight aloft is best kept to a minimum. It makes a huge difference in ride, and also sailing efficiency. The main is kept full, instead of spilling pressure in wild, gyrating rolls.

Looks like we are saying similar things.

All racers know about reducing weight aloft and what a new sail can do vs an old bagged out sail. Even Hobie 16's have a composite tip on the top of their masts (the last 5' or so)

It's just that I see so many sailors on fine 40'-50' new or newish boats sailing along with their main sail leech flapping around like a flag while sailing upwind!

I'm thinking the best sails and the lightest mast still isn't going to help these guys.

Being an exracer, I paid about as much for my 8 oz dacron mainsail as I did for my sailboat. Racers can't stand old sails unless it's for racing in winds under 5 knots

[Kenomac]

Quite honestly Thomm, I don't think most people know how to adjust the leech line.... I didn't until two years ago after showing a video of the sail flapping away on this forum.

That's what's so good about the forum, just post a video and I usually have an answer within an hour or so along with some extraneous criticisms. But that's OK.

Two weeks ago, I showed a couple of friends how to adjust their leech line. The system works.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Except that you and me are in completely a different size of yacht which means that Dacron will work well for us, particularly if its a half decent quality cloth.

Scale it up for a 55ft yacht and the weight of cloth required so it doesn't stretch to quickly becomes very heavy. I can remember failing to raise the main on one 55ft yacht because the main weighed more than I did. This is why the larger yacht owners are choosing laminates.

That said I may well look closely at laminates next time for the Genoa, or the vectron / hydranet options.


Pete

Okay, I can understand this.

My luff is 25.5' and I can usually raise the main without a winch.

With the technora and mylar sails I had in the past for the beach cats I raced, I didn't really notice the weight. The masts were around 31' and we raised sail on land which is great except that you then have to sail through the surf if on the ocean!

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photo/539

https://www.google.com/search?q=worr...r0sL0tFkSZt8M:

https://www.google.com/search?q=worr...cEpPkqbc3sYHM:

Plus there are no reef points so you didn't have to make any adjustments of that nature once on the water

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Quite honestly Thomm, I don't think most people know how to adjust the leech line.... I didn't until two years ago after showing a video of the sail flapping away on this forum.

That's what's so good about the forum, just post a video and I usually have an answer within an hour or so along with some extraneous criticisms. But that's OK.

Two weeks ago, I showed a couple of friends how to adjust their leech line. The system works.

Nice.

I can usually control it with the traveler and sheeting (on the boats I had that actually had a traveler)

Also, when racing you learn really fast if you are doing something wrong as far as sail adjustment goes. You wouldn't stand a chance with a loose leech against any kind of decent competition

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Except that you and me are in completely a different size of yacht which means that Dacron will work well for us, particularly if its a half decent quality cloth.

Scale it up for a 55ft yacht and the weight of cloth required so it doesn't stretch to quickly becomes very heavy. I can remember failing to raise the main on one 55ft yacht because the main weighed more than I did. This is why the larger yacht owners are choosing laminates. . . .

Exactly -- the forces go up with the size of the sail so the cloth has to be heavier. So the total weight of the sail spirals up because it's both more m2 and more weight per m2. Dacron which you would use for a 27 footer, in terms of shape-holding, cannot be matched for a 54 footer -- it doesn't exist even if you could somehow handle the weight. So Dacron sails on boats over 50 feet are stretchier than the ones on 27 footers, and simply too stretchy for those of us who really like to sail.

Laminate is wonderful stuff, and many sailors are not aware that the drawbacks of early generations of laminate sails (sudden delamination; mold) have been solved in the latest autoclaved materials. TJ and I have some of the very expensive stuff, but you can find much cheaper laminate material which is still really good.

After my experience with it, I think I would have it even on a 27 footer -- imagine how fabulously light and flexible it would be -- but obviously, you can do well with Dacron in that size.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Nice.

I can usually control it with the traveler and sheeting (on the boats I had that actually had a traveler)

Also, when racing you learn really fast if you are doing something wrong as far as sail adjustment goes. You wouldn't stand a chance with a loose leech against any kind of decent competition

Ken and I have in-mast furling, which makes the mainsail leech harder to control. The leech cord is essential in cases where you are getting resonant flapping. I don't know if Ken has battens or not, but without battens, and if the leech is hollow, preventing leech flutter is a real challenge -- the leech will be loose by definition. I struggled with that with my last mainsail, but the new one has a straight luff and four vertical, carbon battens, and so the luff can be trimmed pretty tight when necessary.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Okay, I can understand this.

My luff is 25.5' and I can usually raise the main without a winch.

some of those cat sails might fit your current yacht.

This is what I couldn't raise on my own and it took three of us with a winch to do it. I cringe at the way we treated those sails but they do make exceedingly good beds for sleeping on deck when it was hot.

Pete

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Ken and I have in-mast furling, which makes the mainsail leech harder to control. The leech cord is essential in cases where you are getting resonant flapping. I don't know if Ken has battens or not, but without battens, and if the leech is hollow, preventing leech flutter is a real challenge -- the leech will be loose by definition. I struggled with that with my last mainsail, but the new one has a straight luff and four vertical, carbon battens, and so the luff can be trimmed pretty tight when necessary.

Yes, four vertical 6ft long lightweight battens which do make a difference.