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Old 25-10-2017, 03:51   #211
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

Spending can be quantified and it does add up, again, take the Oyster 545.

Bottom paint every two years including in and out.
$4000= $20,000/10 years

Fluff and buff the hull and deck, repair dings and scratches every two years. $6,000=$30,000/10 years

Batteries (1,000 Ah) replaced every 5 years.
FLA $4,000=$8,000/10 years
AGM $8,000=$16,000/10 years
Lithium, $25,000

Engine/generator maintenance, fluids, filters, anodes, hoses, shaft seal, cutlass bearing, other repairs as needed.
$1500=$15,000/ten years

Standing rigging, cordage, crane, professional rigger, every 10 years,
$45,000/10 years

Sailing, 8,000 miles/year, 80,000 miles/ten years. Sail life 40,000 miles
Main, Jib, Staysail North 3Di Endurance $60,000 or RT $25,000 every 5 years.
North, $120,000/ten years
RT, $50,000/ten years

Electronics, Chart plotters, radar, sailing instruments...
$25,000/ten years

Professional services, $1,000/year
$10,000/ten years

Canvas, Eisenglass, side curtains, sun awnings... $8,000/ten years

Hoses, hose clamps,, toilet maintenance, pump maintenance...
$6,000/ten years

Anchor chain, dock lines, windlass repairs...$4,000

The list above is easily $250k over ten years or about 1.7% of $1,500,000 for the new Oyster. These are averages, some years will be lighter, some years will be heavier.

Of course we are all guilty of deferred maintenance but someone is going to pay these bills somewhere down the line.
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Old 25-10-2017, 04:28   #212
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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.....plus we never get hurricanes.. ..:
At least not since last week!
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Old 25-10-2017, 04:40   #213
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Hi Dockhead, 60-70k in eight years on sailing and rigging! That's not normal in the cruising world. I've got friends on an Amel, and similar size to you, they've been cruising 17 years, and will complete their circumnavigation in the next eight mths, I know for a fact they have not spent that sort of money on sails and rigging. Rigging done once and one set of new sails.
If my rigging and sails are going to cost me that much, then I'm selling and buying a power boat.
Yes, you are right -- this is at the high end. That's carbon laminate sails, dyneema running rigging, complete rig overhaul with all new standing rigging.

I'm a keen sailor and believe that this is the best place to spend money on a boat, so I have not skimped on this.

If you're on a ketch-rigged Amel and just cruising, using Dacron sails, then it's much cheaper, probably half or a third or even less. Less stress on the rigging, too, so you can have cheaper and lighter rigging which you replace less often.

But to TJ's point about how the costs of this increase with size -- they do. Cost of sails does go up exponentially, because if the area goes up as a linear function of displacement (assuming constant SA/D), the cost per m2 of sail does not remain constant -- bigger sails are made of heavier and/or more expensive material, and are more expensive per m2 to construct.

This is the really big expense for a big boat -- the one and I guess only thing which grows really rapidly with size.

A split rig like an Amel helps with this because the sails can be somewhat smaller. So the same sail area may be cheaper, perhaps much cheaper.
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 25-10-2017, 05:50   #214
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, you are right -- this is at the high end. That's carbon laminate sails, dyneema running rigging, complete rig overhaul with all new standing rigging.

I'm a keen sailor and believe that this is the best place to spend money on a boat, so I have not skimped on this.

If you're on a ketch-rigged Amel and just cruising, using Dacron sails, then it's much cheaper, probably half or a third or even less. Less stress on the rigging, too, so you can have cheaper and lighter rigging which you replace less often.

But to TJ's point about how the costs of this increase with size -- they do. Cost of sails does go up exponentially, because if the area goes up as a linear function of displacement (assuming constant SA/D), the cost per m2 of sail does not remain constant -- bigger sails are made of heavier and/or more expensive material, and are more expensive per m2 to construct.

This is the really big expense for a big boat -- the one and I guess only thing which grows really rapidly with size.

A split rig like an Amel helps with this because the sails can be somewhat smaller. So the same sail area may be cheaper, perhaps much cheaper.
My friends recently purchased new sails at roll taskers, genoa, main and mizzen, they used marble head and I believe the price was under 7k, or around there.

But I agree, it's depends on desired purpose.
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Old 25-10-2017, 05:52   #215
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Ken,

That’s true if you consider only current year cash expenditure, but the picture is a little different if you set aside money to pay for future large expenses. On the Oyster 545, standing rigging replacement after 10 years would be $30k+, same for new sails, re-spraying the spars etc. It all adds up, but certainly not to 10% of the boat’s value.

Tom
Your figures are way off. We just spent $22k to replace and upgrade our three sails which were over 14 years old and the quote from Foxe’s for new standing rigging was $17k.
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Old 25-10-2017, 06:02   #216
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Hi Dockhead, 60-70k in eight years on sailing and rigging! That's not normal in the cruising world. I've got friends on an Amel, and similar size to you, they've been cruising 17 years, and will complete their circumnavigation in the next eight mths, I know for a fact they have not spent that sort of money on sails and rigging. Rigging done once and one set of new sails.
If my rigging and sails are going to cost me that much, then I'm selling and buying a power boat.
Ive never heard of any cruiser spending anywhere near that much for sails and rigging... maybe half as much. Weve owned our boat for six years and have spent $22k to replace the existing baggy dacron sails with triradial dys sails from a top loft.

I guess it pays to shop around, or buy a powerboat. $70k can buy a lot of diesel especially in Duty free Montenegro.
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Old 25-10-2017, 06:05   #217
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Ive never heard of any cruiser spending anywhere near that much for sails and rigging... maybe half as much. Weve owned our boat for six years and have spent $22k to replace the existing baggy dacron sails with triradial dys sails from a top loft.



I guess it pays to shop around, or buy a powerboat. $70k can buy a lot of diesel especially in Duty free Montenegro.


The typical cruiser doesnt go to weather, nor do they know the trim needed to really push a boat to weather.

Dockhead sails a lot to weather, and this takes a toll on sails. Id bet that Dockheads worn out sails would be just fine for a downwind circumnavigation.

True, diesel would cost less, but then youd lose the joy of sailing!
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Old 25-10-2017, 06:08   #218
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
The typical cruiser doesnt go to weather, nor do they know the trim needed to really push a boat to weather.

Dockhead sails a lot to weather, and this takes a toll on sails. Id bet that Dockheads worn out sails would be just fine for a downwind circumnavigation.

True, diesel would cost less, but then youd lose the joy of sailing!
Enjoyment going to weather, isn't that an oxymoron? Dockheads obviously a little different... Lol.
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Old 25-10-2017, 06:13   #219
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Spending can be quantified and it does add up, again, take the Oyster 545.

Bottom paint every two years including in and out.
$4000= $20,000/10 years. Our bottom paint and haul outs cost €1500 once every two years

Fluff and buff the hull and deck, repair dings and scratches every two years. $6,000=$30,000/10 years Our cost is less than €100 since I do it myself over a four day period during haul out. (See above)

Batteries (1,000 Ah) replaced every 5 years.
FLA $4,000=$8,000/10 years
AGM $8,000=$16,000/10 years
Lithium, $25,000 Our 450ar 24v bank is now 6 years old and will cost €1800 when the time comes

Engine/generator maintenance, fluids, filters, anodes, hoses, shaft seal, cutlass bearing, other repairs as needed.
$1500=$15,000/ten years less than €200 per year actual expenses

Standing rigging, cordage, crane, professional rigger, every 10 years,
$45,000/10 yearsactual quote from Oyster $17k

Sailing, 8,000 miles/year, 80,000 miles/ten years. Sail life 40,000 miles
Main, Jib, Staysail North 3Di Endurance $60,000 or RT $25,000 every 5 years.
North, $120,000/ten years
RT, $50,000/ten yearsour sails were just replaced and upgraded this season for $22k which included shipping

Electronics, Chart plotters, radar, sailing instruments...
$25,000/ten years. we expect this to be less than $8000

Professional services, $1,000/year
$10,000/ten yearsusually around $500

Canvas, Eisenglass, side curtains, sun awnings... $8,000/ten years$8000 is about right

Hoses, hose clamps,, toilet maintenance, pump maintenance...
$6,000/ten yearscloser to $2000

Anchor chain, dock lines, windlass repairs...$4,000Our new windlass cost $4000 just last week

The list above is easily $250k over ten years or about 1.7% of $1,500,000 for the new Oyster. These are averages, some years will be lighter, some years will be heavier.

Of course we are all guilty of deferred maintenance but someone is going to pay these bills somewhere down the line.
Your quotes are way off except for the windlass and canvas probably just to try and prove some point. We own basically the same boat and our actual expenses are in red .
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Old 25-10-2017, 06:48   #220
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Ive never heard of any cruiser spending anywhere near that much for sails and rigging... maybe half as much. Weve owned our boat for six years and have spent $22k to replace the existing baggy dacron sails with triradial dys sails from a top loft.

I guess it pays to shop around, or buy a powerboat. $70k can buy a lot of diesel especially in Duty free Montenegro.
Sure -- and I don't think we sail for the purpose of saving money on diesel fuel.

$22k is less than half I spent just on sails, and that in turn was half of what I was quoted by North and other big lofts!

It all depends on what you want, and what you're willing to spend. I really wanted, really good sails, and I have never regretted it for a moment, although I'm in the middle of a string of lean years in my business and don't have money to burn.

This winter I will probably -- if I can scrape together the money -- drop another 10 000 pounds or so on a Code 0, sprit, and required rigging. Obviously this will never pay for itself in diesel fuel. Our boats are efficient motorboats, and I can motor for less than a dollar a mile. But I don't go to sea for the purpose of saving money -- if saving money was the ultimate goal, we would just stay home!
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"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 25-10-2017, 08:15   #221
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

Our numbers are closer to Dockheads. Spar refit is approaching $60k, sails from a major loft are close to $80k, new middle of the road electronics are $25k... Big boats cost big bucks, our annual maintenance is projected around $30k. I won't say you are deferring maintenance, I don't know you or your boat, but I know our spend and we track close to 1.7% of new replacement and it has for the past 17 years.
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Old 25-10-2017, 08:16   #222
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Sure -- and I don't think we sail for the purpose of saving money on diesel fuel.

$22k is less than half I spent just on sails, and that in turn was half of what I was quoted by North and other big lofts!

It all depends on what you want, and what you're willing to spend. I really wanted, really good sails, and I have never regretted it for a moment, although I'm in the middle of a string of lean years in my business and don't have money to burn.

This winter I will probably -- if I can scrape together the money -- drop another 10 000 pounds or so on a Code 0, sprit, and required rigging. Obviously this will never pay for itself in diesel fuel. Our boats are efficient motorboats, and I can motor for less than a dollar a mile. But I don't go to sea for the purpose of saving money -- if saving money was the ultimate goal, we would just stay home!
Like I wrote earlier, that's more money spent on sails for a 54ft cruising boat than I've ever heard of. Two other friends who each have Oyster 53's (which are actually 54ft long) purchased new DYS sails from Dolphin Sails made in the UK for $20K over the past year... which is more like the norm.

But you keep on throwing the $50k figure out there, leading people to believe quality sails need to cost that much.... and they don't.

BTW: The guys at Dolphin Sails would like you to call them next time you need a new set of sails... they said they'd be very pleased to charge you $50k for your sails.
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Old 25-10-2017, 08:19   #223
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Our numbers are closer to Dockheads. Spar refit is approaching $60k, sails from a major loft are close to $80k, new middle of the road electronics are $25k... Big boats cost big bucks, our annual maintenance is projected around $30k. I won't say you are deferring maintenance, I don't know you or your boat, but I know our spend and we track close to 1.7% of new replacement and it has for the past 17 years.
You're getting hosed. Which boat do you own?
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Old 25-10-2017, 08:33   #224
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Our numbers are closer to Dockheads. Spar refit is approaching $60k, sails from a major loft are close to $80k, new middle of the road electronics are $25k... Big boats cost big bucks, our annual maintenance is projected around $30k. I won't say you are deferring maintenance, I don't know you or your boat, but I know our spend and we track close to 1.7% of new replacement and it has for the past 17 years.
Do you get all the work done in a yard? or do you do it yourself?
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Old 25-10-2017, 08:47   #225
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Re: My boat's too big... I hear it all the time.

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Ive never heard of any cruiser spending anywhere near that much for sails and rigging... maybe half as much. Weve owned our boat for six years and have spent $22k to replace the existing baggy dacron sails with triradial dys sails from a top loft.

I guess it pays to shop around, or buy a powerboat. $70k can buy a lot of diesel especially in Duty free Montenegro.
Well, you have now. My 8 yr spend is $80k. That gets a full standing rod rigging replacement and 3 laminate sails. It's my biggest boating expense after depreciation.

Motor boating is cheaper than sailing in my experience, just as you suggest.
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