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Old 19-02-2022, 17:16   #46
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by Montanan View Post


Formal Clearance and Entry for State Registered, Foreign Owned Vessels

A somewhat unique situation occurs when a vessel is registered in a State of the United States [e.g., the state of Florida] but not owned by a US citizen or Permanent Resident. These vessels are NOT considered by CBP to be US flagged, and they take on the nationality of the owner. So a Florida registered boat owned by a Canadian citizen would be considered to be an undocumented Canadian vessel with a Florida registry. Unfortunately, these vessels are required to physically clear in and out with Customs every time they make a jurisdictional change using Form 1300. Failure to do so can result in fines of up to $5000 per infraction

Reminder: The topic was originally "a Ship on the High Seas"
Got a reference?

If such a vessl were on the high seas, it would have NO "flag state".

The case "should" be the same when in national waters (as opposed to entering or leaving the country). Is an undocumented vessel which is only registered in a US state and owned by a US citizen considered a "US flagged vessel"??


Added: Your quote appears to come from here: https://howardsreederinc.com/wp-cont...-Resource-.pdf .But that is specifically referring to entering the US. Note CBP Form 1300 is used to enter the US, not to move between US states.
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Old 19-02-2022, 18:07   #47
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Reminder: The topic was originally "a Ship on the High Seas"
Got a reference?

If such a vessl were on the high seas, it would have NO "flag state".

The case "should" be the same when in national waters (as opposed to entering or leaving the country). Is an undocumented vessel which is only registered in a US state and owned by a US citizen considered a "US flagged vessel"??


Added: Your quote appears to come from here: https://howardsreederinc.com/wp-cont...-Resource-.pdf .But that is specifically referring to entering the US. Note CBP Form 1300 is used to enter the US, not to move between US states.
The mere act of flying or not flying a flag is in itself not an indication that the vessel has no nationality.
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Old 20-02-2022, 12:29   #48
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25 View Post
I was told quite emphatically by a senior Immigration Officer in WPB Fl that, as in my case, a Fl. State licensed vessel, that as a Canadian I must fly the Canadian flag:: the vessel takes the Flag of it's Captain". I have done this for 36 years.
Scaramanga, yours is one of those unique circumstances, but likely not an uncommon one given the propensity of Canadians to winter over in the USA.
If not for your 36 years of Florida boating, it might have been easier to just register your vessel with Canada, and obtain a cruising license and thus avoid the need to obtain permits to proceed?

Albeit the cruising permits expire after one year and then the boat has to leave the USA for at least 15 days so as to be able to reenter and obtain a new cruising license which transit is definitely a challenge, especially as in your case it has been for 36 years running.

Your Florida registered and titled vessel does avail its use in Florida, and I suspect that is where you come for the winter months, just adds a bit of an immigration / customs clearance procedural tasking associated with your Canadian nationality. If most of your voyaging is local, e.g., day sailing back to the same administrative port, then one is not "proceeding" to a different port and you don't need to obtain permission to proceed.

Permits to Proceed

https://www.marlinmag.com/foreign-ci...g-boats-in-us/

"One misconception is that *noncitizens can get around the strict rules of Coast Guard documentation by simply state titling and registering their boats. Unfortunately, it isn’t that simple. To avoid confusion, a noncitizen’s vessel can be titled/*registered in most states, but the vessel will not have freedom of movement. United States Customs treats vessels based on their nationality. A state *registered/titled vessel does not have a “flag” or nationality, so if a vessel is not foreign flagged or documented with the Coast Guard (U.S. flagged), then it assumes the nationality of its beneficial owner. Hence, a noncitizen’s boat, if titled and registered in Florida, is considered to be a foreign vessel, and is thus treated as such. In this case, a vessel must obtain something called a “Permit to Proceed” from U.S. Customs in order to move from port to port. Failure to follow these regulations can result in fines or even seizure of the vessel itself. As such, foreign citizens typically choose to register their boats in other jurisdictions to avoid customs formalities by obtaining a U.S. cruising license."

So does your vessel wear the Maple Leaf as instructed?
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Old 25-02-2022, 11:54   #49
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

Trying to follow all of this.

Don't know why people are trying to make it complicated

We flew US flag all the time except at night because we had no way to shine a light on it

Once we had cleared into a country we also flew their flag


We also flew our yacht club flag and our house flag.

Seemed to work just fine
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Old 25-02-2022, 15:31   #50
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post

He dipped his ensign in salute and I had to leg it to the stern to dip our ensign in acknowledgement..
[...]
I fly mine 24/7 at sea, in port it comes down at sunset.
That's the way I was learned.
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Old 27-02-2022, 08:25   #51
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

A couple of finer points:
  • While you don't technically have to fly an ensign on the high seas when out of view of other vessels, it seems sensible to do so. We tend to leave ours out 24x7 when underway, even knowing the ensign should be lowered at sunset and raised again at 08:00.
  • If you're US Coast Guard registered, they actually prefer it if you're not state registered as well. That doesn't absolve you of state fees while you're resident, of course.
  • The correct flag for USCG registered vessels is the fouled anchor, not the 50 stars and stripes. The purpose is to distinguish US registration from state registration. Having said that we fly the standard US flag for ease of recognition.
  • Entering into territorial waters you should fly the Q flag until cleared by customs, then fly a courtesy flag of from the starboard spreader. The Q flag gives you enough time to go ashore and buy a courtesy flag if you plan ahead like we do. Ratty, worn out flags are a sign of disrespect.
  • When registered with the USCG your vessel is deemed part of the United States and subject to the same laws and protection.
Cheers!
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Old 28-02-2022, 10:42   #52
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by Captain Red View Post
A couple of finer points:
  • While you don't technically have to fly an ensign on the high seas when out of view of other vessels, it seems sensible to do so. We tend to leave ours out 24x7 when underway, even knowing the ensign should be lowered at sunset and raised again at 08:00.
  • If you're US Coast Guard registered, they actually prefer it if you're not state registered as well. That doesn't absolve you of state fees while you're resident, of course.
  • The correct flag for USCG registered vessels is the fouled anchor, not the 50 stars and stripes. The purpose is to distinguish US registration from state registration. Having said that we fly the standard US flag for ease of recognition.
  • Entering into territorial waters you should fly the Q flag until cleared by customs, then fly a courtesy flag of from the starboard spreader. The Q flag gives you enough time to go ashore and buy a courtesy flag if you plan ahead like we do. Ratty, worn out flags are a sign of disrespect.
  • When registered with the USCG your vessel is deemed part of the United States and subject to the same laws and protection.
Cheers!
FYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensign..._United_States

Yacht ensign

The ensign of the United States is the flag of the United States when worn as an ensign (a type of maritime flag identifying nationality, usually flown from the stern of a ship or boat, or from an installation or facility of the United States Navy, United States Marine Corps, United States Coast Guard or the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration ashore).[1] International maritime law—see International Treaty on Law of the Sea, articles 91 and 92—provides that vessels have a "national character" and thus should display a flag (ensign) that corresponds to this national character, especially when in international or foreign waters. Vessels that are formally documented under the federal vessel documentation act, vessels owned by government bodies in the United States, and vessels in the U.S. military unquestionably have U.S. national character, and thus properly hoist a U.S. ensign to show their national character. Vessels that are numbered by the states (see 46 USC section 411) and small, non-registered craft owned by U.S. citizens and not registered in other countries may also hoist a U.S. ensign to show their national character.

The U.S. Yacht Ensign (a variation of the national ensign; see below) is often used in place of the national flag by U.S. pleasure craft when operating within U.S. waters; this flag was legally required for licensed yachts from 1848-1980, and the practice continues among all U.S. pleasure craft in U.S. waters by longstanding historical use and custom. Additionally, a few smaller pleasure craft operated by members of the United States Power Squadrons will fly the U.S. Power Squadrons flag as an ensign in inland waters in lieu of the national flag (see below). All vessels of U.S. national character should display the national ensign when operating in international and non-U.S. waters.

The United States Yacht Ensign.

A modification of the national flag and ensign but with a fouled anchor in a circle of thirteen stars in the canton, was created by Act of Congress in August 1848 as a flag to be used by licensed U.S. yachts.[11][12] The design was recommended by the New York Yacht Club in 1849.[13] Yachts eligible for the license were initially 20 net tons and over (later reduced to 15 net tons) and otherwise eligible to be enrolled as a US vessel; the license allowed the yacht to proceed from port to port without the formality of clearing customs. The 1848 act used the word 'signal' to describe the flag that a licensed yacht would use to identify herself, and use of this flag was required by all licensed yachts ("All such licensed yachts shall use a signal of the form, size, and colors prescribed by the Secretary of the Navy."). The Secretary of the Navy approved a modification of "the American Ensign" as the signal, and Treasury Decision No. 2727 (March 24, 1876) issued by the Treasury Department confirmed that the flag was to be used as an ensign ("Licensed yachts are required by law to use the American ensign prescribed by the Secretary of the Navy."), and its use as an ensign was reiterated in Treasury Decision 9426 of June 11, 1889 (referring to the "yacht ensign"). While formally licensed yachts were legally required to fly this modification of the national ensign, unlicensed U.S. yachts also started flying this flag as their ensign, too, and eventually the U.S. Navy confirmed that it recognized this practice for all U.S. yachts. In 1939, the Secretary of the Navy approved the ruling of the Judge Advocate General of the Navy "...that a ship of the Navy should return a dip made by a yacht flying the yacht ensign and that the yacht ensign may properly be made the object of a hand salute to be rendered on boarding or leaving a yacht."

The legal requirement for licensed yachts to fly the Yacht Ensign that was part of United States statute (46 U.S.C. section 109) was repealed by the Vessel Documentation Act of 1980 (Public Law 96–594), which removed several legal provisions pertaining to the by-then very rare category of "licensed yachts" and treated all documented recreational vessels the same. Nevertheless, owing to its long usage by all U.S. yachts, as well as the fact that the freedom-from-clearance privilege first extended to "licensed yachts" in 1848 had long since been extended to all U.S. pleasure craft regardless of whether they are federally documented or state numbered (see 19 U.S.C. sec. 1441), the yacht ensign is widely flown by many U.S. yachts and pleasure boats in U.S. waters today, continuing a tradition that dates back to the mid-nineteenth century.[14][15] The states of Arkansas,[16] Maryland,[17] and Washington[18] have each adopted flag protocols which provide that the U.S. ensign "and the U.S. Yacht Ensign, with a canton of 13 stars, are interchangeable on all types of recreational vessels while in national waters." Similarly, the United States Power Squadrons' guide to flags and flag etiquette,[19] prepared in consultation with the Coast Guard, Coast Guard Auxiliary, New York Yacht Club, and others, provides that the Yacht Ensign may be flown as the ensign by U.S. recreational boats of all types and sizes instead of the national ensign in domestic waters, but that the ordinary national ensign should be worn in international or foreign waters.
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Old 28-02-2022, 11:06   #53
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
FYI:



[ All vessels of U.S. national character should display the national ensign when operating in international and non-U.S. waters.



but that the ordinary national ensign should be worn in international or foreign waters.[/B]
Guess many do not understand this. We see MANY US boats here in Canada flying the yacht ensign (in error)!


(Although, in 2020 during COVID-19 border closure, we saw many US boats flying no flag at all... ... even the yacht ensign would have been better than no flag.)
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Old 28-02-2022, 11:34   #54
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by sv_pelagia View Post
Guess many do not understand this. We see MANY US boats here in Canada flying the yacht ensign (in error)!


(Although, in 2020 during COVID-19 border closure, we saw many US boats flying no flag at all... ... even the yacht ensign would have been better than no flag.)
It seemingly is basically a decorative joy flag for recreational boaters to wear in US domestic water.

The Stars and Stripes forever.

Have never understood why would one want to display an anchor fouled by a rode? So not very nautically desirable to have one's anchor fouled by its rode, being very prone to dislodging and hard to retrieve.

Rather Gilligan Islandish IMNSHO.

Hey, but to each their own; their boat can be festooned however they wish, in their own country.

I believe Canada uses the Maple Leaf flag as the civil ensign, dispensing with the Red and the Blue ensigns of old.
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Old 28-02-2022, 13:08   #55
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanan View Post
It seemingly is basically a decorative joy flag for recreational boaters to wear in US domestic water.

The Stars and Stripes forever.

Have never understood why would one want to display an anchor fouled by a rode? So not very nautically desirable to have one's anchor fouled by its rode, being very prone to dislodging and hard to retrieve.

Rather Gilligan Islandish IMNSHO.

Hey, but to each their own; their boat can be festooned however they wish, in their own country.

I believe Canada uses the Maple Leaf flag as the civil ensign, dispensing with the Red and the Blue ensigns of old.
Well, Monty, you wouldn't be wanting to join the Royal Navy then - they have had their anchors fouled since 1588.
https://www.miller-rayner.co.uk/prod...avy-cap-badge/

The british Merchant Navy was a far more seamanlike bunch.
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL42439
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Old 28-02-2022, 13:29   #56
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

Quote:
[*]When registered with the USCG your vessel is deemed part of the United States and subject to the same laws and protection.[/LIST] Cheers!


Only when in US territorial waters or in the high seas where registration substantiates a claim of nationality

In the territorial waters of other nations you are subject to their laws and have similar protections as any US tourist visiting that country.

In my case there are no specific stipulations around when and where I should wear my national ensign ( I used a defaced warranted ensign actually ) other then I should wear it to show national identify

Hence mine flies at all times when my yacht is in commission
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Old 28-02-2022, 14:21   #57
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by peterincalgary View Post
The flag of the country the vessel registered, is flown during the day and may be taken down at night, however it is usually dropped the raised in recognition of a countries naval vessels, the courtesy flag of the countries waters are also flown usually from the mainmast, however this practise is not followed by BC Ferries when in US waters??? but Washington States Ferries always raises the Canadian flag when in Canadian waters, go figure!
When are BC Ferries ever in US waters?
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Old 28-02-2022, 14:32   #58
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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When are BC Ferries ever in US waters?
Every time a BC ferry goes between Tsawwassen and the Gulf Islands/Swartz Bay! Take a look at the chart -- Tsawwassen docks are only 200m north of CAN-USA border!


Difference between BC Ferries and Washington State Ferries is that WSF is entering Canadian waters AND docking in Canada (Sidney, BC, if this route ever returns....) whereas BC Ferries is briefly passing through USA waters and not stopping.
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Old 28-02-2022, 17:24   #59
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

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Originally Posted by sv_pelagia View Post
Every time a BC ferry goes between Tsawwassen and the Gulf Islands/Swartz Bay! Take a look at the chart -- Tsawwassen docks are only 200m north of CAN-USA border!


Difference between BC Ferries and Washington State Ferries is that WSF is entering Canadian waters AND docking in Canada (Sidney, BC, if this route ever returns....) whereas BC Ferries is briefly passing through USA waters and not stopping.
Ah yes. During the 10 mins it takes to cross a weird wedge of US water in the middle of an international strait - pete expects them to fly the stars and stripes.
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Old 28-02-2022, 17:50   #60
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Re: Must a Ship on the High Seas Fly the Flag of a State

This thread seems to be focused on US vessels, but from the Antipodean point of view, SAMSA lists these offences for South African registered vessels (i.e. all SA vessels that leave the SA EEZ):

Quote:
Offence * Person held responsible * Penalty

Failing to hoist the National Flag on South African Ship * Master *R40 000 or 2 years

Hoisting prohibited colours etc on South African ship * Anyone * R40 000 or 2 years

Permitting prohibited colours etc to be hoisted on a South African Ship * Master * R40 000 or 2 years

Unlawfully causing ship to appear to be a South African ship * Master or owner * R100 000 or 5 years

Unlawfully concealing etc nationality of South African ship * Master or owner * R100 000 or 5 years

source
R40k ~ USD2600
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