Multihull in distress.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by moseriw

Well some things I do not understand. According to the video the sea was not calm but smooth - so the gale was gone. A tow to Garrucha (8 Miles) takes, with precautions 3 hrs at max. So why not organize a tugbost with a strong pump? Garrucha has a Marina and a big crane to lift the cat out.

They have the Cata docked in Aguilas harbour..
Thats what i hear from the SAR website.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Acording to the Spanish SAR , they sail with to much canvas up and the rig broke making a hole in the starboard side. 50 knts reported, the weather in the video is the calm after the blow...

2 Mio USD boat should have a skipper or an experienced owner capable of handling 50 kt. (I've sailed twice in 50-53 kts of wind with a 43 ft mono and 44 ft cat, it wasn't fun but not that bad either) Unless the wind has gone up from 20 kts to 50 in a minute or so, they might have been dismasted. But, otherwise they should have had enough time to take the reef. Maybe, something has broken or jammed and they couldn't..
If the rig has made big hole in the hull and underwater, then OK..

Anyway, I think we need to know more before commenting too much..

Cheers

Yeloya

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by yeloya

2 Mio USD boat should have a skipper or an experienced owner capable of handling 50 kt. (I've sailed twice in 50-53 kts of wind with a 43 ft mono and 44 ft cat, it wasn't fun but not that bad either) Unless the wind has gone up from 20 kts to 50 in a minute or so, they might have been dismasted. But, otherwise they should have had enough time to take the reef. Maybe, something has broken or jammed and they couldn't..
If the rig has made big hole in the hull and underwater, then OK..

Anyway, I think we need to know more before commenting too much..

Cheers

Yeloya

I dont know, if you look at the video again there is a big chunk of mainsail hanging in the starboard side, i know the área in question, Cabo de Gata , Almeria, GIB, and i can tell you 50 knts in a long lived gale from the West , the Spanish called strong Poniente , and so close from GIB, acting like a funel , créate a really washing machine along the coats, very Deep short step waves with a short interval, enough to broke boats...
The crew and the skipper?? i dont know what the crapp they are thinking...

[robert sailor]

Wouldn't be to quick to judge the skipper, there have been some large Cats flipped by some experienced sailors. Depending on how fast that wind came up, what point of sail they were on they might not have had the time to reef it. I've experienced winds that went from 15 knots to 40 knots in much less than a minute so it's probably best to wait and see what the skipper has to say.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I dont know, if you look at the video again there is a big chunk of mainsail hanging in the starboard side, i know the área in question, Cabo de Gata , Almeria, GIB, and i can tell you 50 knts in a long lived gale from the West , the Spanish called strong Poniente , and so close from GIB, acting like a funel , créate a really washing machine along the coats, very Deep short step waves with a short interval, enough to broke boats...
The crew and the skipper?? i dont know what the crapp they are thinking...

Dynamic loads on the standing rigging leading to loosing the rig is the price that catamarans pay for their stability. For this particular cat, the manufacturer needs to up the rigging diameter once again and see if that holds. Trial and error is the best that can be done.

[donradcliffe]

There's somebody on this forum who keeps insisting that the rig on a cat is designed to fail before the cat capsizes. May be true in this case, as the cat is still right side up.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It's typical. The cat, the crew, the waving while being winched up to the heli, the abandoning a unsinkable multi-hull, the posts in this thread, all typical.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Dynamic loads on the standing rigging leading to loosing the rig is the price that catamarans pay for their stability. For this particular cat, the manufacturer needs to up the rigging diameter once again and see if that holds. Trial and error is the best that can be done.

It's really unfortunate that you have chosen to make posts like this. I used to respect your opinion.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Dynamic loads on the standing rigging leading to loosing the rig is the price that catamarans pay for their stability. For this particular cat, the manufacturer needs to up the rigging diameter once again and see if that holds. Trial and error is the best that can be done.

Rubbish. The engineering of rig loads is not rocket science.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Palarran

It's really unfortunate that you have chosen to make posts like this. I used to respect your opinion.

Originally Posted by Factor

Rubbish. The engineering of rig loads is not rocket science.

Well, may be the gentlemen can offer some citations then. I bet you can't because the shock loading on the rig of a catamaran can not be calculated like it can on a monohull. On a monohull it's simply the force needed to pull the masthead down to the water level plus a allowance for mass inertia plus a safety margin. Explain how they calculate it on a cat? Pull until it capsizes? The naval architects that I've read about on this issue state they use rule of thumb and change the rule for the cats that loose too many rigs (in testing of-course, no worries).

And about the video: Palarran, did it escape you that they were waving while being hoisted up to the heli? Do you think that is normal for somebody being rescued by coastguard?

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I don't want to derail the thread, but we got word yesterday that on Sunday a charter cat from the Abacos attempted to go out Adderly cut in the Exumas and returned sans mast and sails. The word is that no one was injured and hull damage is relatively minor. Wind at the time was NE in the low 30's gusting to mid 30s here in Georgetown. We had one report of 41 in a more exposed area. It was probably higher in Exuma sound. I will attempt to get more details.

I'll bet in both cases it may have been as much the jarring from the waves as it was the wind.
Side note, we raced as crew against you guys, Great day!

[tp12]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

There's somebody on this forum who keeps insisting that the rig on a cat is designed to fail before the cat capsizes. May be true in this case, as the cat is still right side up.

There's a few of us really. Plus the manufacturers that I spoke to and the rigger that I spoke to. But then Jedi's comment wasn't about whether they're engineered to fall over before capsizing; it was about the loads being incalculable.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Dynamic loads on the standing rigging leading to loosing the rig is the price that catamarans pay for their stability. For this particular cat, the manufacturer needs to up the rigging diameter once again and see if that holds. Trial and error is the best that can be done.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Well, may be the gentlemen can offer some citations then. I bet you can't because the shock loading on the rig of a catamaran can not be calculated like it can on a monohull. On a monohull it's simply the force needed to pull the masthead down to the water level plus a allowance for mass inertia plus a safety margin. Explain how they calculate it on a cat? Pull until it capsizes? The naval architects that I've read about on this issue state they use rule of thumb and change the rule for the cats that loose too many rigs (in testing of-course, no worries).

And about the video: Palarran, did it escape you that they were waving while being hoisted up to the heli? Do you think that is normal for somebody being rescued by coastguard?

Are you seriously suggesting you can't calculate loads on a multi for the purposes of rig design?!

[neilpride]

Rigging in a Multi is by rule Oversized , hell im a rigger by trade i know what im talking about, in the Privilege the rigging is top quality , they are the first ones in the past to fit Nirvana spars in a multi, the same spar Brand used by Eric Tabarly in Paul Ricard trimaran.


I have one in the coachroof of the workshop, really cool mast , not like the crap you see this days.. 50 knts in the Med are a killer for any spar...

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Rigging in a Multi is by rule Oversized , hell im a rigger by trade i know what im talking about, in the Privilege the rigging is top quality , they are the first ones in the past to fit Nirvana spars in a multi, the same spar Brand used by Eric Tabarly in Paul Ricard trimaran.


I have one in the coachroof of the workshop, really cool mast , not like the crap you see this days.. 50 knts in the Med are a killer for any spar...

Sorry I'm not with you. I was South of Mallorca and Sardenia in a 50 knots (up to 62 knots gusts) Mistral and the furlex was broken so the 60 m² -genoa was fully set. Not really a problem with the Vagsbond 47. OK the old Genny was done at the sun protctors then but...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by moseriw

Sorry I'm not with you. I was South of Mallorca and Sardenia in a 50 knots (up to 62 knots gusts) Mistral and the furlex was broken so the 60 m² -genoa was fully set. Not really a problem with the Vagsbond 47. OK the old Genny was done at the sun protctors then but...

Guess what, i be caught to with plenty of sail up and not a problem, reef down and all is ok... what i mean is 50 knts are close to f10, reef at your own discretion,, i have no idea if the Privilege is sailing with the 2 reef or the first one or full sail or is just a matter of bad luck or rigging failure,, you just have good luck with that unfurl furlex in those conditions..

[moseriw]

well yes I had luck but if it would have been a problem... lt her fly, no wind pressure any more, and half an our later it is toally broken.