More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[StuM]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

I don't believe I misconstrued anything. If you are sailing, you can embark for any country at any time and Fiji won't know anything about it. If I'm on my way to Hawaii and 12.1 miles outside of Fiji I decide to stop in Fiji then that's when I embarked for Fiji.

I suggest you look up the meaning of "embark".


Hint; you can't "embark" when you are already on the vessel.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by OloteleMtn

Something about this thread reminds me of the whole "cancel culture" movement

I'm seriously curious....in what regard?

I mean without getting political, from my perspective it seems pretty cut and dry that Zatara entered a country after being told not to. (He even acknowledged it.)

As did the 3 men in the Solomons.

But, I'd seriously be interested in hearing you out...which I the point of discussion.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

As of 1st Julyin American Samoa
Work your way down past all the 'whereasez'
They are currently 'code blue'

Edit... Item 7 regarding private flights seems as close as it gets to dealing with yachts..

https://6fe16cc8-c42f-411f-9950-4abb...6b5bfc38e9.pdf

El Pinguino, this seems to be "what aboutism". You are getting into an argument about whether American Samoa allows yachts? or is American?

Is it related to the comment Zatara made, something like: "obviously, since I am American I can go to any American port, and I can stay at sea a long time"?

You can't shift us El Pinquino, Zatara didn't go to Samoa, even if he might have been able to. He went, firstly, directly to a place where he'd been told he cannot enter. Then he lied and said they "just decided" to go there while his track pointed directly to it from the day he left New Zealand.

Then he went to Fiji and clearly violated their entry requirements.

And finally, his brag that he could stay at sea for along time (presumably until the countries open their borders), was also a stupid claim, since he stayed hardly any time at all, anywhere.

So diverting us to a discussion of whether American Samoa is American is really a dumb attempt at distraction, possibly learned from watching Kelly Ann Conway too much

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

I don't believe I misconstrued anything. If you are sailing, you can embark for any country at any time and Fiji won't know anything about it. If I'm on my way to Hawaii and 12.1 miles outside of Fiji I decide to stop in Fiji then that's when I embarked for Fiji.

Most Zarpe require a planned destination port.

Contrary to what you want to believe...you may not embark for any country at any time. Many countries require a Zarpe prior to departure and upon arrival.

If you are on your way to Hawaii, you cannot just decide to stop at Fiji. That's not how it works. If you are a distress vessel you can ask for assistance; but you can't decide..."oh, this looks like a nice place...I think I'll drop my anchor here for awhile."

Maybe you should familiarize yourself more with clearance in and out of foreign ports and the restrictions. There's great info on NoonSite to help you understand.

Oh..and after specifically pointing out that Whittaker was told not to enter Tonga, he acknowledged that message and he did so anyway you still fail to see how he violated any rules...well...there's really nothing else to say is there?

[OloteleMtn]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

I'm seriously curious....in what regard?

I mean without getting political, from my perspective it seems pretty cut and dry that Zatara entered a country after being told not to. (He even acknowledged it.)

As did the 3 men in the Solomons.

But, I'd seriously be interested in hearing you out...which I the point of discussion.

I doubt you will see my point....but i will try.... The situation in the Solomons is unclear without further information; it appears from the published article which was referenced earlier in the thread that the 2 Brits and one US person were on shore without having been granted clearance, but why is unknown.
As to Zatara, how can you consider that they "entered the country" when they temporarily, presumably without disembarking, and after radioing for permission, entered the reef area claimed by both Tonga and Fiji, and then left the area? For historical purposes, let me add that Tonga once claimed Samoa as theirs, once upon a time. To me, it seems that all of this discussion, character attacks, etc on line has more potential to damage the cruising opportunities in the Pacific than does the actions of any individual "arrogant" vessel captain; word does get around.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by wingssail

El Pinguino, this seems to be "what aboutism". You are getting into an argument about whether American Samoa allows yachts? or is American?

Is it related to the comment Zatara made, something like: "obviously, since I am American I can go to any American port, and I can stay at sea a long time"?

You can't shift us El Pinquino, Zatara didn't go to Samoa, even if he might have been able to. He went, firstly, directly to a place where he'd been told he cannot enter. Then he lied and said they "just decided" to go there while his track pointed directly to it from the day he left New Zealand.

Then he went to Fiji and clearly violated their entry requirements.

And finally, his brag that he could stay at sea for along time (presumably until the countries open their borders), was also a stupid claim, since he stayed hardly any time at all, anywhere.

So diverting us to a discussion of whether American Samoa is American is really a dumb attempt at distraction, possibly learned from watching Kelly Ann Conway too much

You really don't know me do you?........
Whataboutism?? Where did that come from? Try reading my post again....s.l.o.w.l.y.....
The bloke on Zatara at some stage suggested that he could go to Am Samoa ... I simply posted the official word from that place which suggests that at very best he would be moved on muy pronto without getting ashore.....

And what is a Kellyannconway?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by OloteleMtn

Hey Fred, don't blame the Penguin for the comment about American Samoa; that was me....I am an American, and i live in American Samoa. You should tone down your attacks on those who don't share your views...while i am sure your life has been impressive, you are not the only one with life experience. Let's stay on topic and be nice!

OK, I'll try.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by OloteleMtn

I doubt you will see my point....but i will try.... The situation in the Solomons is unclear without further information; it appears from the published article which was referenced earlier in the thread that the 2 Brits and one US person were on shore without having been granted clearance, but why is unknown.
As to Zatara, how can you consider that they "entered the country" when they temporarily, presumably without disembarking, and after radioing for permission, entered the reef area claimed by both Tonga and Fiji, and then left the area? For historical purposes, let me add that Tonga once claimed Samoa as theirs, once upon a time. To me, it seems that all of this discussion, character attacks, etc on line has more potential to damage the cruising opportunities in the Pacific than does the actions of any individual "arrogant" vessel captain; word does get around.

Perhaps your final point is valid.

As for the Solomon Island incident...the why is for them to explain why they went to a yacht club and not a port of entry...seems a bit odd that the YC called the authorities to report them and they did not attempt to notify the authorities of their entry.

The statement of Tonga once claiming Samoa as their territory is a strawman argument and has zero bearing on the subject at hand, so I won't waste time addressing it.

TheUN officially recognizes Tonga' jurisdiction over Minerva Reefs. The inter-governmental UN body called the Pacific Islands Forum recognizes Tonga jurisdiction over the reefs. These are facts.

WHEREAS the Reefs known as North Minerva Reef and South Minerva Reef have long served as fishing grounds for the Tongan people and have long been regarded as belonging to the Kingdom of Tonga has now created on these Reefs islands known as Teleki Tokelau and Teleki Tonga; AND WHEREAS it is expedient that we should now confirm the rights of the Kingdom of Tonga to these islands; THEREFORE we do hereby AFFIRM and PROCLAIM that the islands, rocks, reefs, foreshores and waters lying within a radius of twelve miles [19.31 km] thereof are part of our Kingdom of Tonga.

Yes, the area is contested by Fiji and Fiji filed a petition with the UN, but currently the legal jurisdiction currently falls under Tonga (see above). The supposed "claim by Fiji" argument is a red-herring and ignores established UN conventions.

You may dislike the facts, but they are facts. If you can provide any UN convention that contradicts these facts...I'd be interested.


It has also been established that Tonga informed Zatara he would not be allowed to enter and he acknowledged the mail from the Tongan gov't on his social media site.

He stated he radioed ahead. Whether he radioed ahead or not is beside the point.
1. He was specifically told not to enter Tongan waters.
2. He acknowledged their instructions to stay out of Tongan territory and posted the letter from the gov't on his social media site.
3. He blatantly ignored the edict from the Tongan gov't and specifically headed to these reefs (as evidenced by his PredictWind track).

These are also facts.

Finally, it is common knowledge that in most countries when you drop your anchor you have "entered" that country regardless of whether anyone disembarks or not (unless the vessel is in distress / force majeure).

WRT to the Right of Innocent Passage...

(Art. 18 (1) UN Convention on the Law of the Sea). Such passage shall be ‘continuous and expeditious’. Stopping or anchoring may only take place insofar as they are ‘incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress’ (Art. 18 (2) UN Convention on the Law of the Sea; → Ships in Distress).

This is also a fact.

So, yes...according to these facts as I've laid out...I fail to understand your logic or reasoning.

If you can present substantiated evidence (his blog rants are not evidence) to the contrary I might change my opinion of the man's character....but, at this point...I highly doubt it. The case seems pretty clear.

Maybe the perspective is different in the unincorporated US territory of American Samoa, but I think the facts in this situation are pretty conclusive.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

The fact that no-one has decided to do anything to the crew of Zatara, I think confirms that this thread and it's predecessor have been personal attacks on Zatara by members of this forum who don't agree with the skippers political views.

I beg to disagree.

As the OP of this thread, prior to the previous thread I had no idea who this person is, and I don't care what his political views are.

My opinion, and the evidence suggests he ignored the instructions of the Tongan government to stay clear.

Nobody has been able to provide any facts or evidence to the contrary.

Weather reports for the area during the time in question were not severe.

His intentions were clearly indicated by him, and his track shows him heading for Tongan territory.

His own actions speak of his character. As I said...I admire him for striking out with his family in search of adventure. Kudos to him. I admonish him for flagrant and arrogantly ignoring the specific requests of authorities and circumventing established procedures.

[Westcliffe01]

The situation at the reef was also about a sailor interacting with the enforcement wing of the government. They probably have some latitude in their decisions and are usually interested in the intent of the individual. Apparently their interaction was of a nature that did not indicate the need for decisive action on the part of the Navy.

[ewishki]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

I beg to disagree.

As the OP of this thread, prior to the previous thread I had no idea who this person is, and I don't care what his political views are.

My opinion, and the evidence suggests he ignored the instructions of the Tongan government to stay clear.

Nobody has been able to provide any facts or evidence to the contrary.

Weather reports for the area during the time in question were not severe.

His intentions were clearly indicated by him, and his track shows him heading for Tongan territory.

His own actions speak of his character. As I said...I admire him for striking out with his family in search of adventure. Kudos to him. I admonish him for flagrant and arrogantly ignoring the specific requests of authorities and circumventing established procedures.

You keep asking for evidence to the contrary but other than a news article (opinion piece) you also have no evidence. No one here knows the truth other than SV Zatara and the Tonga officials. Considering he is there and not arrested, fined, in jail, etc I would have to use the very reliable "actions vs words" scenario.

Your OP references something from mid March about Zatara not being allowed in Tonga. That was 4 months ago. 4 months in Covid era is a decade.

[JPA Cate]

"Discussions about politics...are permitted only in association with the topic of this forum and will be closed or removed if they become disruptive."

Posts have been removed for politic discussion above, racist comments, quoting deleted posts as well as commenting on CF moderation, all against the Community Rules, that you all agreed to follow when you joined CF.

It is possible to discuss what is happening without involving the politics of the USA or Australia, and without involving racial slurs. Please just do so.



JPA Cate

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Curious where you've heard that? Doesn't seem to be in LNMs.

https://covid19.alaska.gov/wp-conten...rcial-Fish.pdf

III. Self quarantine section h. on page 3
Vessels are required to fly a “Lima” flag or similar yellow and black pennant if they have any crew on board still under self quarantine.

[DreamBig]

It's amazing to me that in a few short months the entire world has changed.

As for S/V Zatara, their whole progression has been kinda outlandish from the start. Nothing against them, I think they have done a great job in. They produce good videos, well marketed, family fun, living and learning together. If you watched his previous episodes, when he was talking with customs in NZ, I knew he was about to fly the coup. Who knows what the reasoning is exactly, but hopefully they had a good one. ;-)

Them trying to sneak into a country wouldn't surprise me. He is a good business man. I am sure he knows what he is doing and has it all planned out. In fact, it probably got them a few things they needed, like more publicity and provisions. I wonder how many new donors, patrons, and subscribers they have received from this post?

Anyhow, just like leave no trace in the forests, I believe we cruisers should go to these places to observe, and enjoy. Not to change cultures, or intrude. (Not saying they did)

There were others that were caught out,(which they weren't) and had to resort to sneaking to find safe harbor. Have you seen (Sailing into freedom)? They have a pretty good 6 part series of their time trying to find save harbor. After being kicked out of Cuba...

There are still other options to watch also Like (Gone with the Wynns) also from TEXAS, has a series of how they had to stay in Fiji for three months.

Free range sailing (my personal favorite) down in tazmania.

(Delos) hanging out in the Ragged islands.

Or you could try watching the newest one that are still trying to figure it all out (Dream Catcher-SV Ameris) <--- shameless plug, but heck we don't lie, cheat, or steal on our blogs, Heck we don't even have a blog... . We definitely don't leave a perfectly good country, to try to enter one illegally during a pandemic. I might need to recant some of the positives I said about Zatara. It sounds like a pretty boneheaded plan. I sure he had a reason, though. :-)

Anyhow, I hope that life gets back to somewhat normal soon, this virus has already taken one of "our" grandmothers, and nearly my nephew, he is only 18yrs old.

Cheers,
James

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

TheUN officially recognizes Tonga' jurisdiction over Minerva Reefs. The inter-governmental UN body called the Pacific Islands Forum recognizes Tonga jurisdiction over the reefs. These are facts.

Yes, the area is contested by Fiji and Fiji filed a petition with the UN, but currently the legal jurisdiction currently falls under Tonga (see above).

Your link is to a submission by Tonga to the UN. Nothing there abut the UN recognising the claim. That is a fact.
The Pacific Islands Forum is NOT a UN body. That is also a fact.
The Pacific island Forum (actually the South Pacific Forum at the time) did not "recognise Tonga's jurisdiction". The actual wording was:


Members of the Forum recognised Tonga’s historical association with the Minerva Reefs, welcomed the Tongan Government’s continuing interest in the area and agreed that there could be no question of recognising other claims, and specifically that of the Ocean Life Research Foundation, to sovereignty over the reefs.

IOW, they did NOT accept Tonga's jurisidiction or sovereignty. Whether any nation had sovereignty was left open. And that's a fact.



We eagerly await your evidence in support of your claim that the UN officially recognises Tonga's jurisdiction over the reefs .