Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Why would you put sh*t on a gold coach? You're trying to make a beautiful and ultimate performance boat into an ugly bug-like creature!


Nick.

Your boat is very pretty.

[Mark Johnson]

These were in the Bahama's "Tongue of the Ocean", off of the Eastern coast of Andros, with a barrier reef 300' to leeward, beating hard at around 9 knots... In seas between 13' and 15', with winds in the HIGH 30s, gusting to 40.

M.

[s/v Jedi]

Return of the Jedi - Volvo Ocean Race 2011-12 - YouTube

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

It is always a mistake to generalize, but... Our 34' home made Searunner trimaran is a true "round the world cruiser", that easily goes 7-9 knots, even to windward, VS a (similar size / similar loaded / similar seaworthyness level) monohull's... 5-6 knots. We can do this in really nasty seas, while tacking through 90 degrees. The computer program's "track" feature, shows us our "actual" track, not just an estimate. In other words... We make good a track that looks like 90 degree steps.

Most heavily loaded, 34' "cruising" monohulls, as well as most cruising cats, that are similarly sailed to windward, make more leeway, as well as less speed, than a Searunner of the same length!

Our occasional double digit speed broad reach, ALL DAY LONG, is just icing on the cake!

M.

Mark - nice boat and thanks for sharing the pics. Looks like fun.

However - the numbers displayed result in a TWS of almost 23 knots at 80 degrees true. I sail on a 35 jeanneau and we do 7 knots in 23 tws and are pointing at about 45 degrees true. I am not saying you can't point higher than what you are displaying but vmgs will be very close to windward.

You probably would kick our butts in light airs. I think we are around 8 ton...

http://www.csgnetwork.com/twscorcalc.html

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The day you join the 300 mile club, you can talk smak about how slow monos are..
I've got more than a few multi-day, open ocean miles under my keel and the only time Ive ever seen a multi-hull on the open water was when I was passing them..
You need to take your attitude back up on the porch, You dont have what it takes to play with the big dogs..............

Wow..."play with the big dogs"??? The only sensible response to that is to assume that entire post was tongue-in-cheek...

Randyonr3, we sincerely hope you enjoy more "multi-day open ocean miles" as much as we enjoy ours. With only ~18000nm on our cat and ~5000nm on various other vessels (mostly mono's) we wouldn't dare to profess to be one of the 'big dogs' in the company of so many more experienced yachtspeople (mono's and multi's) here on CF, but we can at least safely observe that cats (and yes, even Lagoons!) can be both very seaworthy and (for those who care!?) quick enough to pass YOU when conditions suit cats.

Bottom line in our view...each to their own! Enjoy your time on the water in whatever boat you choose, or that you are fortunate enough to be on!!

[impi]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The day you join the 300 mile club, you can talk smak about how slow monos are..
I've got more than a few multi-day, open ocean miles under my keel and the only time Ive ever seen a multi-hull on the open water was when I was passing them..
You need to take your attitude back up on the porch, You dont have what it takes to play with the big dogs..............

Your profile pic says it all ... In your dreams buddy ... In your dreams

[impi]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Another data point to add
Today we had a 15nm sail, directly downwind in 7-15 k true breeze. Most of the time is was about 11k.
We sailed with full main and genoa. The Lagoon 410 sailed with full main and gennaker or screecher whatever they call it. They left 5 mins before us and arrived 15 after us, but they had to sail into wind to raise and lower their main. ( our boom furling main is very quick to raise and lower and it can be done downwind) also the last 2nm were motoring and our engine boat speed was a bit higher. Overall I think the sailing speeds were very close.

We rarely use our big gennaker and did not on this occasion, but my guess is it would have added 25% to our boat speed in these light conditions.

Interesting on a direct downwind course in light conditions I would have expected a cat to have much better boat speed. When the cat was using a big gennaker I would have expected them to arrive much sooner than us.

Interesting ... We hoist our main once the genoa is out and easily so ... We also lower our main without heading upwind ... We do make use of our reeding lines but it goes quickly. It's all about technique and knowing ones boat! Let me know when you are in the BVI ... Would be nice to to check this out

[Dragon Lady]

Originally Posted by impi

Interesting ... We hoist our main once the genoa is out and easily so ... We also lower our main without heading upwind ... We do make use of our reeding lines but it goes quickly. It's all about technique and knowing ones boat! Let me know when you are in the BVI ... Would be nice to to check this out

Sounds interesting, can you post some more info?
A video would be great.

[impi]

Originally Posted by Dragon Lady

Sounds interesting, can you post some more info?
A video would be great.

I will see what I can do about a video ...
In the meantime I can tell you what we do ...
Under way .. Genoa out ... Slack off the stack pac lines on the leeward side and cleat off near mast ... Traveller out ... Clamp off reef 3 on the mark and hoist main ... Clamp off reef 2 on the mark and hoist the main ... Clamp off reef 3 (if necessary) and hoist the main. Our electric winch obviously helps.
We do this most of the time unless sailing off the anchor with the main hoisted!

[impi]

Originally Posted by impi

I will see what I can do about a video ...
In the meantime I can tell you what we do ...
Under way .. Genoa out ... Slack off the stack pac lines on the leeward side and cleat off near mast ... Traveller out ... Clamp off reef 3 on the mark and hoist main ... Clamp off reef 2 on the mark and hoist the main ... Clamp off reef 3 (if necessary) and hoist the main. Our electric winch obviously helps.
We do this most of the time unless sailing off the anchor with the main hoisted!

Oh ... And I should mention the reefing system on the Lagoon 440 consists of blocks at the front and rear of the sail for each reefing system which keeps the sail tensioned front and rear (luff and leech)

[impi]

Originally Posted by impi

Oh ... And I should mention the reefing system on the Lagoon 440 consists of blocks at the front and rear of the sail for each reefing system which keeps the sail tensioned front and rear (luff and leech)

... And by stack pac (south African terminology coming out there) ... Some call them lazy jack

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The day you join the 300 mile club, you can talk smak about how slow monos are..
I've got more than a few multi-day, open ocean miles under my keel and the only time Ive ever seen a multi-hull on the open water was when I was passing them..
You need to take your attitude back up on the porch, You dont have what it takes to play with the big dogs..............

Seriously - you have open ocean cruised a Bene at 300 miles a day? Im very impressed, You need to come here and win the Brisbane to Gladstone, Nothing under 100ft mono has done the race in under a day = and its 302 miles.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by impi

I will see what I can do about a video ...
In the meantime I can tell you what we do ...
Under way .. Genoa out ... Slack off the stack pac lines on the leeward side and cleat off near mast ... Traveller out ... Clamp off reef 3 on the mark and hoist main ... Clamp off reef 2 on the mark and hoist the main ... Clamp off reef 3 (if necessary) and hoist the main. Our electric winch obviously helps.
We do this most of the time unless sailing off the anchor with the main hoisted!

Interesting indeed...thanks Impi.

Perhaps it's a bit off-thread (or not?!?) but we're curious...what advantage do you see in sequentially releasing the reefing lines as the main goes up? We tend to simply open all the reefing blocks (or the top 1 or 2, depending on our intended mainsail area) before we begin to raise the main. The reefing lines come out sequentially, of course...and wouldn't it be preferable to concentrate on the main, without the need to remember (or pause?) to release the blocks? Probably not a big difference, but we're curious.

We're also wondering if your method relieves some of the nuisance value of the battens snagging on the lazyjack lines? Perhaps having the main clearly commited to one tack (with the leeward lazyjack lines slacked) would allow the battens to go up unfettered?

[D&D]

Originally Posted by impi

We also lower our main without heading upwind

It might be interesting to hear a bit more on this technique also...?

[downunder]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I just don't know how to compare a tri to a cat. I've never seen the interior spaces of them. Also, I don't understand the performance benefits of trimarans. I mean, I know that many trimarans are fast, but I don't know why, except that they are commonly built for speed.

I have never seen a trimaran built to the comfort standards of a Lagoon or other cruising catamaran, and definitely don't know if such a craft would have a performance advantage owing strictly to it's tri-hull configuration.

You haven't done your research them. Check out neel trimarans.