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Old 01-12-2017, 12:09   #121
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Hey Robert, I think I read your age in a previous thread, if I'm right your a similar age to my parents. They've moved into a retirement village and do water aerobics for seniors a couple of times a week. You on the other hand are crossing oceans!
I'm planning on being like you (and the Cates ) when I grow up.
Getting old is not for cowards Dale, you'll learn that in time..I'm still an active pilot, do lots of diving and love riding motorcycles when im not sailing...so far so good. You are the perfect age to really kick ass so take every opportunity to get as much as you can out of life because life really is like a roll of toilet paper...the less there is left the faster it spins.. I know from your posts that your doing some real sailing and I really enjoy hearing opinions from guys like you. As far as Jim and Anne, i think they may outlive all of us, they set a bad example.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:46   #122
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Getting old is not for cowards Dale, you'll learn that in time..I'm still an active pilot, do lots of diving and love riding motorcycles when im not sailing...so far so good. You are the perfect age to really kick ass so take every opportunity to get as much as you can out of life because life really is like a roll of toilet paper...the less there is left the faster it spins.. I know from your posts that your doing some real sailing and I really enjoy hearing opinions from guys like you. As far as Jim and Anne, i think they may outlive all of us, they set a bad example.
I'm in the "age is but a number" camp because of what I've seen from so many capable seniors over the years. Sailing doesn't require one to be a gymnast or a big weightlifter if you set up your boat appropriately and plan ahead. Older, experienced sailors usually happen to be very good at both of those skills and they've seen enough so aren't easily panicked into doing foolish things that turn a manageable "issue" into an emergency. Whereas a younger sailor might use his catlike reflexes and strength to extract himself from a bad situation aboard, the more senior sailor avoids the situation entirely by anticipating it. It's also a real individual thing because I've seen incapable people who are FAR out of shape and aren't real steady on their feet (and not only when leaving a pub) who were only in their 50's and then I've seen 80 somethings who you can't believe are really that old and seem capable of doing anything most 30 year olds can do. Active people who are constantly active don't seem to lose much capability unless they experience a major medical event that prevents them from continuing their active habits.

The incident that prompted this thread sounds like it could have pretty equally happened to a sailing couple of any age. I would guess that more sailing couples than not, of any age, underestimate the difficulty of singlehandedly getting their partner back aboard in mid ocean, especially with the boat under sail and no visual references to help them stay oriented. One of those things that's much easier said than done! The lesson I got from this has nothing to do with age but has a lot to do with the fact that I have serious doubts whether my 48 year old wife would be able to turn the boat around and get me back aboard if I happened to fall overboard or get knocked overboard, and we need to make it a high priority item to remedy that ASAP during the next sailing season.
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Old 01-12-2017, 13:37   #123
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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I'm in the "age is but a number" camp because of what I've seen from so many capable seniors over the years. Sailing doesn't require one to be a gymnast or a big weightlifter if you set up your boat appropriately and plan ahead. Older, experienced sailors usually happen to be very good at both of those skills and they've seen enough so aren't easily panicked into doing foolish things that turn a manageable "issue" into an emergency. Whereas a younger sailor might use his catlike reflexes and strength to extract himself from a bad situation aboard, the more senior sailor avoids the situation entirely by anticipating it. It's also a real individual thing because I've seen incapable people who are FAR out of shape and aren't real steady on their feet (and not only when leaving a pub) who were only in their 50's and then I've seen 80 somethings who you can't believe are really that old and seem capable of doing anything most 30 year olds can do. Active people who are constantly active don't seem to lose much capability unless they experience a major medical event that prevents them from continuing their active habits.

The incident that prompted this thread sounds like it could have pretty equally happened to a sailing couple of any age. I would guess that more sailing couples than not, of any age, underestimate the difficulty of singlehandedly getting their partner back aboard in mid ocean, especially with the boat under sail and no visual references to help them stay oriented. One of those things that's much easier said than done! The lesson I got from this has nothing to do with age but has a lot to do with the fact that I have serious doubts whether my 48 year old wife would be able to turn the boat around and get me back aboard if I happened to fall overboard or get knocked overboard, and we need to make it a high priority item to remedy that ASAP during the next sailing season.
Your spot on, it's extremely difficult to get someone back on board on a passage. In my racing days we had a young trimmer go overboard in Vancouver waters.One of the crew grabbed his jacket and was trying to hold on and very quickly we had 3 guys in a matter of seconds all with a hand on him. We first tried to just use brute strength to pull him up over the side, remember these were all young men in their mid 20's and all in good shape. No way it was going to happen until we stopped the boat which we did very quickly but it still took 3 guys to lift him up and they were gassed when they finally got him aboard. The fellow that went overboard was unable to help himself because even that short time in cold water had sapped his strength.
Id say the average Ma and Pa cruising couple would not be capable of being able to get their partner back aboard no matter their age.. which is why its so important to not go overboard. As i mentioned in an earlier post when the main is prevented off and the jib is poled out the average woman with just base sailing skills is going to take a long time to slow the boat down and be able to go back upwind and pull off a rescue, hell often professional sailors can't even pull it off in time to save a life. Sure you can go out in your protected bay using working sails with everything loose and demonstrate how to return to pick someone up..but that's not reality. Reality when crossing oceans are winds from 15 to 25 knots or higher and 10 to 12 foot seas quite often. People have crap tied all over their boats and often you have to get rid of that just to have a chance on getting someone back aboard. Remember even if you can stay tethered to the boat but your in the water there is a better than even chance that you'd drown before your mate could gain control of things. The best strategy is to really make good decisions, maybe it's a moonless night and it's blowing pretty good and you have a halyards wrapped on a foredeck cleat and you need to jibe or tack that sort of thing. Someone is going to have to go forward to release it...90% of the time I'd do it but if the seas were really up I just might decide to shorten sail and slow down and wait until morning light or for things to die down a bit before I did it.
If the person does stay tethered and is in the water my wife would send the spinnaker halyard my way so that I could connect to it and then using a mast winch get me closer to the boat, if that all works she can then run the halyards to the windless and use it to lift me over the side because she doesn't have the power to hand winch me. It all sounds good but the real situation is odds are against you if you go overboard and your probably going to die. Keep that in mind when your making your decisions. One last question..we have all read stories about people falling overboard on offshore passages....how many stories have you read about a succesful Ma or Pa actually saving the other person. Ive been doing this stuff for 35 years but ive never read about a successful reboarding of a Ma or Pa on an ocean passage no matter their age...R
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Old 02-12-2017, 13:05   #124
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense. This is nothing more than you circling back to your original argument but with a different slant, hoping to rehabilitate yourself.

From an actuarial standpoint, the number of rescues of elderly cruisers, relative to the rest of the marine insurance claims paid out by marine insurers, is so small as to be literally less than a rounding error. It could triple and still be less than a rounding error.

You hear more about rescues of older cruisers because of the internet. It's just a bunch of anecdotal aggregation, nothing more.
You are rude as usual. Rehabilitate from what?

I was not talking about insurance claims. It seems you did not understood anything.

I was talking about rescues made on yachts, for health reasons or for not being able or want or to continue sailing.

Those rescues are not paid, no claims and no insurance is needed, at least for now.

Yes there are a high percentage of rescues done to elderly sailors.

It seems that you cannot deal or accept someone that has not the same opinion as you, but even so there is no need to be rude.
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Old 02-12-2017, 13:13   #125
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Yes there are a high percentage of rescues done to elderly sailors.
So far I resisted to contribute derailing the topic, just one thought here. I suspect the elderly spend more time at sea, because most younger folks are bound to their day jobs, where they most likely won't trigger an EPIRB...

Anyway, I am out of this age - no age discussion, I think everybody who is fit enough have right to do whatever sport he/she chooses. Just as driving licenses are not withdrawn at a certain age - and you usually endanger more people while driving a car...
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Old 02-12-2017, 13:15   #126
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

there you are Polux,
I asked you earlier where do you get this information about high number of rescues for older sailors as I have searched the internet for statistics and number of rescues and failed to find any reference to corroborate yours,your response greatly appreciated.
David
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Old 02-12-2017, 15:20   #127
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

well,may be there is no data with statistical value available?
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Old 02-12-2017, 15:47   #128
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pirate Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

I think if you look at it realistically the percentages of rescues for the over 60's is on a par with the under 60's.
Take for example the Caribe to Europe crossings..
A few years back there were a few rescues from boats where all were under 50.. and the year before that 4 boats disappeared all with 'young' skippers and crews.
Pulling numbers out of thin air will get you nowhere.. and untill one has tucked a few big transits under their belt it best to refrain from criticising folk doing trips beyond your experience..
As for old folks 2 up being unable to save an MOB.. I can think of a few boats with 12+ crew also being unable to rescue an MOB.. occasionally they may manage a recovery.. followed by a burial at sea.
Its a harsh environment and the sea dont give a **** about ones age..
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Old 02-12-2017, 16:14   #129
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I think if you look at it realistically the percentages of rescues for the over 60's is on a par with the under 60's.
Take for example the Caribe to Europe crossings..
Its a harsh environment and the sea dont give a **** about ones age..
Boatman
I agree,have posted some references previously with caveat that numbers and statistics are just that.

"United States Coast Guard Search and Rescue Summary Statistics
1964 thru 2015
FiscalYear Cases Responses SortiesL ivesSavedLives
1975 62,334 70,551 81,561 3,024 -
1978 77,954 86,222 100,262 4,386 -
1995 49,704 63,679 110,267 4,453
2015 16,456 37,215 18,781 3,536

There is a spike on '75 to '78 and then again '95.
Subsequent years actually show a decline on calls.


http://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/CG...ts%2064-16.pdf

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03195091

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/UN_USA08/...USCG%20SAR.pdf

SAR Facts, Reports, Presentations & Info Sheets

Now,I taken the time to search and find some information of some value on what I consider a rather troublesome opinion expressed by a poster,however a response has eluded me and dare to think there are no hard data reports to substantiate such strange and benighted opinions.
I felt needed to have some foundation to my babbling,unfortunately this not always shared.
Anyways,thanks for your comments and I shall continue sailing without fear to be a burden to society.
take care
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Old 02-12-2017, 17:12   #130
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

Devil.. You do have to keep in mind they US Coastguard stats rarely deal with offshore sailors as they are too far out to send in helicopters however the stats certainly make sense for coastal cruisers. Ive always had the attitude that when we are crossing oceans we are on our own and we will have to deal with whatever comes along.
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Old 02-12-2017, 18:19   #131
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

When I was in the USCG in the mid 70’s we did a lot of open ocean searching in C-130’s.

Last spring met a 80yo gent who just finished a circumnav in a 30’ plywood boat. He lost the first one in Italy and replaced it with a near twin to finish the sail. He was just passing through on his onward trip.

Two onboard is, at best, just singlehanding with better watch standing. Some crew are a minus.

Me. Can you tie a bowline?
He. SURE SEE!
Me. That’s not a bowline.

Me. (Blathering about some necessary bit of info I was caught by the black empty voids just above his nose.) You interested?
He. No.
(Repeat 3X then give up)

Me. I’ve got to go below, hold her straight for that light
He. Sure.
.....
He. Oh ****!
Me. WTFAYD?
He. Trying to sail in the channel between the red bouy and that big rock.
Me. That bouy is marking the rock. Stand over there.

Life vests need crotch straps, I’ve sown them on when needed.

We have discussed using the dingy motor handy billy on the big boat or the main sail sheet on the small boat for MOB recovery. Modified the main sheet a bit adding a snap so it could be easily repourpsed to this end.

My Wife is reading this thread now. Thanks to all.
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Old 02-12-2017, 19:14   #132
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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So far I resisted to contribute derailing the topic, just one thought here. I suspect the elderly spend more time at sea, because most younger folks are bound to their day jobs, where they most likely won't trigger an EPIRB...

Anyway, I am out of this age - no age discussion, I think everybody who is fit enough have right to do whatever sport he/she chooses. Just as driving licenses are not withdrawn at a certain age - and you usually endanger more people while driving a car...
The point here is if age increases the risks in what regards cruising offshore or not. If the risks are increased obviously the risk of a rescue increases being it for health problems or to diminished ability to cope with the elements and maneuver the boat.

This is no rocket science there are specialists that deal with risks and risk probability, the insurance companies. They are interested in selling insurance policies except if those insurances represent a high risk . So lets have a look in what regards offshore sailing, insurance and age:

SAILING TRAVEL INSURANCE
Just like any other adventure holiday a sailing holiday comes with certain risks and makes insurance cover for sailing a must...However, if you’re going on a more adventurous trip and are planning to be sailing the high seas for more than 45 days then our long term travel insurance policies will be a better choice. ...There are certain conditions relating to sailing holidays that you need to be aware of. There is no cover for ship to shore evacuation. ..LONG STAY SINGLE TRIP POLICY:Maximum age on these policies is 64 years on GOLD and SILVER, 35 years on BACKPACKER or 55 years on STANDARD LONGSTAY.

https://www.navigatortravel.co.uk/ac...rance/sailing/

Sailing & Offshore Sailing Travel Insurance
Sailing is one sport where our customers feel that the cover on offer from other providers isn't as clear and comprehensive as they'd like to see. With input from the sailing community, we've created DOGTAG OFFSHORE, the ultimate sailing travel insurance. Designed by sailors for sailors, both offshore and inshore.
Offshore is defined as: sailing 12 miles or more from the coastline....
Coverage is not available for ages 65 and older.

https://www.dogtag.com/sports-inform...vel-insurance/
https://www.dogtag.com/faqs/

COVER FOR OVER 400 ACTIVITIES
If you are aged 65-69, you are limited activities in categories 1 – 4 only

Sailing/Yachting/... – Ocean Crossings (all vessel sizes) -5


Almost any activity can be covered with Adventures Travel Insurance

This is all evident. Only a blind man doe not understand that somebody that is going to make a 4 year circumnavigation with 74 years of age will take hugely more risks (health and capacity to face problems) than someone with 50 years.

Of course. there are countries where to sail offshore you have to have a sail licence that comes after other smaller licences and many hours of practice. I assume that on countries on that is not needed the ones that go offshore have the needed experience, so we are talking about experienced sailors, the one with 74 and the one with 50.

It is amazing to be discussing this.
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Old 02-12-2017, 20:08   #133
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

Polux, first of all hi..havent debated with you for awhile, hope all is well.

For regular boat insurance we pay less than most folks, especially for offshore sailing and thats based on my experience as a sailor and a few points for being a Commercial Pilot so no premium on that end. Health insurance is another kettle of fish because there is no avoiding the fact that as you age the chances of getting sick will increase but thats health insurance not boat liability or hull insurance. If your out in the middle of the ocean and you get sick your going to have to rely on your mate to keep things going as well as tend to you but it's no different as to how old you are as there are no ambulances 1500 miles from land. Age is not really a factor, it really depends on the individual. Some 40 year olds are so fat and out of shape they should hardly be allowed on a boat but there are both men and women in the 70's that have done some amazing passages, some around the world via the great capes. The important thing as Clint Eastwood used to say is "know your limits" and everything will be just fine.
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Old 02-12-2017, 20:34   #134
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Polux, first of all hi..havent debated with you for awhile, hope all is well.

For regular boat insurance we pay less than most folks, especially for offshore sailing and thats based on my experience as a sailor and a few points for being a Commercial Pilot so no premium on that end. Health insurance is another kettle of fish because there is no avoiding the fact that as you age the chances of getting sick will increase but thats health insurance not boat liability or hull insurance. If your out in the middle of the ocean and you get sick your going to have to rely on your mate to keep things going as well as tend to you but it's no different as to how old you are as there are no ambulances 1500 miles from land. Age is not really a factor, it really depends on the individual. Some 40 year olds are so fat and out of shape they should hardly be allowed on a boat but there are both men and women in the 70's that have done some amazing passages, some around the world via the great capes. The important thing as Clint Eastwood used to say is "know your limits" and everything will be just fine.
Yep, and while I have not followed up on Polux's insurance provider, most "travel insurance" (which is what he was showcasing) is primarily health coverage whilst away from home. Sure, some have additional features, but none that i am familiar with really replace normal yacht hull insurance.

To me, this invalidates his argument. He says that it is amazing to him to still be discussing the subject. I am amazed that he can't see that he isn't addressing the issue directly.

Jim
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Old 02-12-2017, 20:36   #135
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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there are countries where to sail offshore you have to have a sail licence that comes after other smaller licences and many hours of practice.
I would really like to avoid those countries, as I assume the penalty for jaywalking is very steep indeed. The government nanny-state is expanding where I live. Motorcycle helmets are a great idea, but penalties are CRAZY-high for skipping the helmet. I hope I don't get dinged for skipping my vitamins.
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