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Old 26-11-2017, 20:16   #46
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes death is perfectly reasonable, shortening the time we have to live with careless decisions is not reasonable.

The only thing why in average we today live till over 74 is because after 60 we have quality medic care frequently in what regards preventive (surveyance) and active care.

The average of male life expectancy on US is about 77 years, now, but in 1930 it was about 60. The difference is due mostly to medic care.

If you go circumnavigating around the world on all those beautiful and godforsaken places you will have no more quality preventive and active medic care so if you have 74 and do that what do you think that will happen to your life time expectancy?

Do you reach 78 (the age that sailor would have when he finished his circumnavigation) on those conditions? Statistically it would be very improbable even if it can happen but the odds will be much much lower than if you have proper medical care.

I guess that if you think that death is not reasonable you will agree that life is precious, so it is reasonable to take actions that almost for sure are going to shorten it, probably drastically?
So, really what’s your point? Just to make some wise elder couple feel guilty about life choices ? I’m sure that has all been hashed over before launch.
I suggest the moderator move that issue to a different thread to discuss there.
Not here where help concentrates on a rescue., not second guessing sailors decisions to sail at any particular age....
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Old 26-11-2017, 20:56   #47
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

Thruska.....Polux retracted his comments 10 posts ago....it is posts like yours that are continuing to distract from the actual event!
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Old 26-11-2017, 21:56   #48
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

Generally I disagree with anyone saying someone in their 70's is too old to sail. I'm 71 myself and have NEVER had a medical condition that would have resulted in my death had it gone untreated. Having made transoceanic passages pretty well problem free I think I can be a good judge of whether I can do it again - and I'm quite confident I can..

However, did you see the picture of this guy? He looks quite overweight and not in good shape.

I would never sail overnight or any significant distance alone (I consider it unsafe in so many ways) - but "crew" MUST, at a minimum, be able to stop the boat and turn around to rescue me should I go overboard, and MUST be able to operate all safety and major communications equipment. None of that takes long to teach, and with regular practice hopefully tragedies such as this can be avoided.

I feel terribly sorry for this man's wife and family.
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Old 26-11-2017, 22:09   #49
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

I found it instructive to read "Lifesling Case History." Find it by internet search. A hundred man overboard incidents, not all involving Lifesling. Several cases of "skipper overboard, no one else could handle boat," several "engine disabled by line fouled in prop," several "MOB unable to assist after a few minutes in cold water."
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Old 26-11-2017, 22:10   #50
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Your right of course. I was discussing this with the crew this morning. The problem is showing someone once or twice isn't enough, repetition is the master of skill. I fail in this area.
Going to make an effort when I leave here to get crew more competent in this area, my life may depend on it.
In 28°C moderate seas you don't have to be a top boat-handler to rescue a guy, if you can just heave to, he might be able to swim back. I know, not all boats are equal...
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Old 27-11-2017, 00:34   #51
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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In 28°C moderate seas you don't have to be a top boat-handler to rescue a guy, if you can just heave to, he might be able to swim back. I know, not all boats are equal...
Many crew which include wives in my experience can't get the boat hove to. Many couples are in the situation of relying completely on the captain.

Most crew I have taken on have been inexperienced, wouldn't know how to turn the vhf on.

Mostly I know if I fall overboard I'm dead, I very much believe in the safety of the cockpit.

I had a good friend die of a heart attack anchored of Singapore several years back, his wife who was beside her self struggled to get a call out on vhf (didn't understand the channels) and couldn't give a position.

I don't hold the crew responsible (although some don't want to learn) it's captains (including me) that have become self sufficient and independent that don't put enough effort into teaching.

I've taught my partner how to stop the boat, furl sails, start the engine and use open cpn. If I'm lost I hope she can follow open cpn to land under headsail only. She doesn't need to fully understand batteries, just needs to know start the engine and charge them each day etc. The basics to get her somewhere.

We will go through these basics again before we set off this year.

This incident reminds me that I need to put more effort into this area.
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Old 27-11-2017, 00:39   #52
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

What you can do in this case (single handing or with a non-sailing passenger) is to wear a PLB on your life jacket at all times. Every accident teaches us something .

I agree, the crew - let's call passenger, this case it's more fitting - cannot be held accountable. If you don't know something, you might not even realize what kind of knowledge is missing...
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Old 27-11-2017, 00:50   #53
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

Also alot of crew aren't that interested. It's a combination of skipper wanting to teach and crew having a DESIRE to learn, not just a "I should learn".

I did a crossing from Tioman to Kota Kinabalo, at the end of the passage the young girl crewing with me said "you didn't teach me much" my response was "you didn't learn much" the lessons were there.
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Old 27-11-2017, 01:22   #54
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Also alot of crew aren't that interested. It's a combination of skipper wanting to teach and crew having a DESIRE to learn, not just a "I should learn".

I did a crossing from Tioman to Kota Kinabalo, at the end of the passage the young girl crewing with me said "you didn't teach me much" my response was "you didn't learn much" the lessons were there.
Absolutely agreed. You can get in trouble when single handed or worse, be with a small child who can't even reach the VHF/see you from the cockpit. Modern tech is amazing, just found this little gizmo for as little as 75$, you only have to wear it on board at all times...
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Old 27-11-2017, 02:04   #55
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

On this thread relating to a couple sailing across the Atlantic and the husband falling overboard, leaving the wife on board but incapable of being able to turn the boat and recover her husband, a post was made about the couple (or husband) being too old.

There is only a "too old" scenario when the couple (or husband) has reached the stage of senility and is incapable of (in the case of a boat) being able to sail and navigate the boat properly and safely. In 2006 I was on my way from Panama to Tahiti and was in radio communications with a gentleman aged 71 on a 27 foot sloop. His SSB radio was giving problems and I was relaying his position each day to a shore station. The gentleman completed his circumnavigation successfully and there should be some mention of him on the Internet. What I found remarkable about his adventure was that he had had a heart transplant and a kidney transplant prior to his circumnavigation. His name was Ardell Lien and I am sure his full story is to be found on the Internet – Google is your friend!

However, the point of this post is not the age of the skipper or crew, but that if you are sailing alone and fall overboard, the likelihood of you surviving is pretty slim - EPIRB, PLB or a personal AIS transmitter is not going to help in the deep. However, when it comes to having one or more crew besides yourself, it is imperative to get that person or persons fully trained in what to do and how to go about reacting to and recovering a MOB. And it does not help doing a couple of practice runs and then go sailing. It needs ongoing training and practice so that the crew will act instinctively and immediately and not have to go below to find their notes on what to do to refresh their memory.

About nine years ago a British skipper with further two crew on board was taking a catamaran to the Mediterranean on delivery. He was a very lucky idiot in that he was saved after going overboard but broke the golden rule of using a bucket to scoop water – he tied the lanyard to his wrist instead of the boat! The boat was about 50nm from Madeira and he was on watch from 03:00 to 06:00. His relief woke up at around 06:30 and wondered why he had not been woken just before 06:00 to take over the watch. He went into the cockpit and soon realised that the skipper was no longer on board. Fortunately, the crew member was a certified skipper himself and knew the chart plotter very well. He was able to bring up the track the boat had sailed and trace back. Just over two hours later they spotted the skipper using the upturned bucket as a flotation device and recovered him. The skipper was very lucky! The seas were flat with only a slight swell, making it possible for the deckhand and mate to spot the "coconut" floating with his pet bucket.

This is why it is imperative to train your crew in MOB situations . . . . . . and carry on training them every week or two until they can recover you without thinking how they should go about doing so. It is like a properly trained crew on a ship - they do MOB and fire drills on a regular basis, wether in port or on the high seas. The same should apply to the small recreational craft - practice, practice and practice!

A number of years ago I was examining a young lady for her coastal skippers certificate. I had done the practical examination out at sea and we were heading back to the marina at the far end of the commercial harbour. The young lady was actually very good at being in full control of the vessel and had passed with flying colours. Ahead of us was a small sail boat that was being used as a youth training vessel, which we were watching and me asking the young lady how she intended to pass the vessel. She turned to me and said she was going to make directly for it as she thought it was busy sinking! I had a good look and watched with amazement as the stern became lower and lower in the water with kids now taking to the water. We recovered all eight kids with the new skipper really taking control of the rescue. She was actually awarded a Yachtmaster Offshore certificate of competence and then went to work on a tall-ship. But she knew how to recover people out of the water, quickly and efficiently.

So, after the above rambling, please get your partner or crew fully able to stop a boat and recover a MOB – that person in the drink might just be you!

My thoughts are with the wife and family.
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Old 27-11-2017, 02:06   #56
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Originally Posted by GTom View Post
Absolutely agreed. You can get in trouble when single handed or worse, be with a small child who can't even reach the VHF/see you from the cockpit. Modern tech is amazing, just found this little gizmo for as little as 75$, you only have to wear it on board at all times...
The problem with the spot is they don't use Iridium, I used to use one, now I use in reach. The spot would be very "spotty" in the Indian ocean.
But we digress.
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Old 27-11-2017, 02:59   #57
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

To keep the thread focused: Ken Goodings Group admin for Caribbean Navigator FB Page: Information on the MOB from the Polish boat:
Suzana from the ARC+ spent the afternoon speaking with MRCC in Fort de France, and the Coast Guard in England, so this is accurate information.
He went overboard NOVEMBER 21, while trying to deal with the gennaker. The weight of the sail in the water dragged him in. His wife was able to toss the Dan Buoy overboard, but did not have the skills to rescue him. He is still missing. The ARC+ fleet has been notified to be on the lookout. The French authorities are concentrating on a 30 mile search area.
The man's wife was picked up by a ship, and they are endeavouring to tow the boat to Barbados.
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Old 27-11-2017, 03:25   #58
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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with due respect for your opinion, Polux, as an actively cruising 79 year old man from America, I say that this is nonsense.Jim
Quite, this guy is 76 this year. Last year he completed his 7th transit of the NWP. There is a photo of him in the book doing pull ups in the cabin.

British sailor David Cowper navigates 'world's most difficult sea route' for first time since discovery in 1822 - Yachting World

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Old 27-11-2017, 04:26   #59
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pirate Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

Its a common thing to judge others from the perspective of ones own limitations on risks, skills/capabilities and stamina.. dont sweat it..
Its human nature
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Old 27-11-2017, 05:19   #60
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Re: Missing yacht near Barbados..

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Originally Posted by Scorpius99eh View Post
I would never sail overnight or any significant distance alone (I consider it unsafe in so many ways) - but "crew" MUST, at a minimum, be able to stop the boat and turn around to rescue me should I go overboard, and MUST be able to operate all safety and major communications equipment. None of that takes long to teach, and with regular practice hopefully tragedies such as this can be avoided.
Several other posters have shared similar sentiments.

It's not just teaching a skill. Not every sailor's spouse is willing and able to sail, and the reasons are legion. Some do not have the strength or dexterity for line handling. Some have medical conditions that limit exertion. Some are willing passengers but not willing crew. Some have the wherewithal but are among the 25% of the population who cannot navigate using a map or chart no matter how hard they try to learn.

Faced with that, what would you do? Stay home? Find a different wife? I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

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I feel terribly sorry for this man's wife and family.
As do I.
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