Missing yacht near Barbados..

[svHyLyte]

I have been following this thread for some while but, until now, with only one contribution/comment. At this point, however, it seems the debate has gone very far afield from the matters of the original incident, into a discussion of the capability of old men vs younger, fit vs. unfit, rules/laws/restrictions et al on the right to sail, etc., etc. etc.

In the event, the (old) man went forward to deal with some issue with his asymmetric. Somehow the sail got into the water, likely when he was trying to douse the thing, and he got dragged overboard. There is nothing I can see that is age related/dependent in that. By comparison, when I was in college, due to a helmsman's steering error, I got knocked off the foredeck of a boat by an errant drifter while helping with a sail change during a race. As I had been out of sight on the leeward side of the sail, and was stunned by banging the back of my head on the hull and so did not immediately call out, my guys didn't realize I'd gone off board until they were well past me. Being 20, or 70, wouldn't have made any difference save perhaps for one's ability to endure the cold for somewhat longer...perhaps.)

The most salient issue in the event was that the wife was unable to turn the boat back to recover her husband (tho' she reportedly did get flotation gear to him). She either didn't know how to handle the boat; or, didn't have the strength needed to do so in the conditions, sealing his fate. This, of course, is not a failing of the woman. At least some of you may recall a situation in 2011 when the wife of a couple participating in the NARC was swept overboard from their yacht, Triple Stars, in heavy seas, 280+/- miles northeast of Bermuda. The husband was not able to turn the yacht back to recover her (who had neither a PFD nor been tethered) and she was lost. In both events, it was the inability to get back to the person overboard that cost a life. (More on the Triple Stars event.)

If couples are going to sail together, regardless of age, both must be skilled with managing the boat in extremes tho', realistically, neither wold likely be able to return to a person overboard quickly enough to save them, even knowing their position via AIS or whatever other device one might have. Given that, one must focus on preventing someone going overboard at all, whether sailing as a couple, or alone, and regardless of ones age or level of fitness. If I have learned noting else in 60+ years of sailing, it is simply that.. No? It would seem that should be the focus of any continuation of the discussion if any continuation is merited at all.

FWIW...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Polux

Here are the prices, depending on the scholl ACP is not the cheaper. The one you mention costs 675 euros
https://www.acp.pt/Servicos/Carta-de...cacoes-recreio

Hey.. What can I say.. I'm just quoting your countrymen.. never needed to ask for me.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

I have been following this thread for some while but, until now, with only one contribution/comment. At this point, however, it seems the debate has gone very far afield from the matters of the original incident, into a discussion of the capability of old men vs younger, fit vs. unfit, rules/laws/restrictions et al on the right to sail, etc., etc. etc.

In the event, the (old) man went forward to deal with some issue with his asymmetric. Somehow the sail got into the water, likely when he was trying to douse the thing, and he got dragged overboard. There is nothing I can see that is age related/dependent in that. By comparison, when I was in college, due to a helmsman's steering error, I got knocked off the foredeck of a boat by an errant drifter while helping with a sail change during a race. As I had been out of sight on the leeward side of the sail, and was stunned by banging the back of my head on the hull and so did not immediately call out, my guys didn't realize I'd gone off board until they were well past me. Being 20, or 70, wouldn't have made any difference save perhaps for one's ability to endure the cold for somewhat longer...perhaps.)

The most salient issue in the event was that the wife was unable to turn the boat back to recover her husband (tho' she reportedly did get flotation gear to him). She either didn't know how to handle the boat; or, didn't have the strength needed to do so in the conditions, sealing his fate. This, of course, is not a failing of the woman. At least some of you may recall a situation in 2011 when the wife of a couple participating in the NARC was swept overboard from their yacht, Triple Stars, in heavy seas, 280+/- miles northeast of Bermuda. The husband was not able to turn the yacht back to recover her (who had neither a PFD nor been tethered) and she was lost. In both events, it was the inability to get back to the person overboard that cost a life. (More on the Triple Stars event.)

If couples are going to sail together, regardless of age, both must be skilled with managing the boat in extremes tho', realistically, neither wold likely be able to return to a person overboard quickly enough to save them, even knowing their position via AIS or whatever other device one might have. Given that, one must focus on preventing someone going overboard at all, whether sailing as a couple, or alone, and regardless of ones age or level of fitness. If I have learned noting else in 60+ years of sailing, it is simply that.. No? It would seem that should be the focus of any continuation of the discussion if any continuation is merited at all.

FWIW...

Wot ^^^^^He^^^^^ Sed..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by newhaul

here we have a $25 USD cost for license that is permanent no need to renew ( required for all vessels with more than 10 HP engine. ) the test can even be taken online. ( its for my state and is accepted everywhere .) that I have been to )

Accepted everywhere on the US. It will not be accepted in Europe on countries where a licence is needed. I am sure of that but this is not the place to discuss it. It was already discussed in several threads.

Just saying it for saving trouble to you or to another person mislead by that information.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Polux

Accepted everywhere on the US. It will not be accepted in Europe on countries where a licence is needed. I am sure of that but this is not the place to discuss it. It was already discussed in several threads.

Just saying it for saving trouble to you or to another person mislead by that information.

do you have proof of this statement?
Or is it just like most of your posts just to elicit a retort?
Btw what you are posting is not germane to the original context of this thread .

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux, first of all hi..havent debated with you for awhile, hope all is well.

For regular boat insurance we pay less than most folks, especially for offshore sailing and thats based on my experience as a sailor and a few points for being a Commercial Pilot so no premium on that end. Health insurance is another kettle of fish because there is no avoiding the fact that as you age the chances of getting sick will increase but thats health insurance not boat liability or hull insurance. If your out in the middle of the ocean and you get sick your going to have to rely on your mate to keep things going as well as tend to you but it's no different as to how old you are as there are no ambulances 1500 miles from land. Age is not really a factor, it really depends on the individual. Some 40 year olds are so fat and out of shape they should hardly be allowed on a boat but there are both men and women in the 70's that have done some amazing passages, some around the world via the great capes. The important thing as Clint Eastwood used to say is "know your limits" and everything will be just fine.

Hi, yes I continue to live on the boat and cruise 5 or 6 month on a year. All well with you and your wife?

This year for the first time we had health problems with my wife that is 65 year old. Even if she had never had a significant health problem in her life and we had made health checks before the sailing season.

This time I had to put her on a fast ferry to Athens for a surgery. All went well but it would not be the case if we were sailing on the middle of the Atlantic, many days away from health care.

Part oh knowing your limits is to know that after 65 years of age health problems, some needed urgent care are much more prone to happen and if happen they will not only demand fast care but give an incapacity to continue sailing the boat.

You are a lucky guy because your wife is able to sail the boat alone but that is not the case with most of our wives. Mine can help with sailing but is not able to sail the boat alone even if I tried hard along the years to teach her. Unfortunately, like many, she is just not interested.

I don't complain because if I compare her with the wives of many friends I am quite lucky because if I sail the boat she does not complain (except if I sail on really bad whether) and is quite happy to live half a year on the boat almost always on the move. I can tell you that in what regards average she is better than most than I know and I know many.

The diference from a 40 year old obese and out of shape guy and a guy with over 65 years old is that on that first case it is a personal choice. Normally if someone is doing sailing it is normal that maintains a good degree of fitness, comes with the territory and even if someone is overweight that can be modified.

Unfortunately the health problems that come over 65 are just related with age decay and cannot be improved. I mean you can maintain a high physical fitness but that will not diminish significantly the risk of a heart attack or a stroke (AVC) and in some cases even increase it if the exercise is too much.

Unlike the case of a fat guy with 40, that is just a particular case and not an average, people over 65 year old in average have a much higher possibility of having serious health problems that make them unable to continue sailing or even make imperative fast health care for survival.

We are talking here about risk and statistics and that's why all sailing insurances that have to do with research in case of accident, rescue, costs of returning home if a voyage has to be stopped and health care for sailors have as limit 65 year of age.

That does not mean that a guy with over 65 could not successfully circumnavigate and many have done so, the point is that in average he will have much more risks to have an accident, due to health problems and do to diminished fitness that can have or not with those health problems.

Again, that is why insurance companies don't insure sailors over 65 in what regards research costs or rescue costs in case of an accident.

But the case here the one I started to discuss was not about a guy with 65 years of age but about a sailor that was 74 years old when he started a circumnavigation and that would have 78 when he finished it, the sailor that went overboard.

All those risks regarding sailing that are increased by age and that lead insurance companies that insure rescues or research costs to refuse insurance over 65 are much, much higher at 74/78 than at 65 years of age.

Stating that (in average) a guy with 74 to 78 years of age will not take much more risks doing a 4 year old circumnavigation than a guy with 40 makes not any sense.

I would say that it is even ridiculous...but that is what most are defending on this thread

[Polux]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

..
In the event, the (old) man went forward to deal with some issue with his asymmetric. Somehow the sail got into the water, likely when he was trying to douse the thing, and he got dragged overboard. There is nothing I can see that is age related/dependent in that. ....

Do you know if he had a stroke and went overboard due to that? The chances of having a stroke or felling dizzy with a blood tension problem are hugely bigger at 74 than are at 40.

The balance, equilibrium and muscular response to a sudden movement of the boat are also much more accurate and fast on a 40 year old man than on a 74 year old one.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The problem is showing someone once or twice isn't enough, repetition is the master of skill.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Polux

Do you know if he had a stroke and went overboard due to that? The chances of having a stroke or felling dizzy with a blood tension problem are hugely bigger at 74 than are at 40.

The balance, equilibrium and muscular response to a sudden movement of the boat are also much more accurate and fast on a 40 year old man than on a 74 year old one.

You are correct and I agree with you to an extent, but only in a general way. Each person is different not only physically, but also in terms of experience, training, capability, etc. I know plenty of people today who while in their thirties, forties, and fifties are in worse physical condition than some in their seventies or eighties.

Equally important is knowing one's limitations and knowing what one doesn't know, and acting accordingly.

In this case I think the discussion about age is not productive since we don't know the details. Certainly it was not good that his wife wasn't able or comfortable with dropping sails and turning the boat around. Having said that, we don't know why the husband went overboard. We also don't know if he was tethered in or not. Recently a much younger person was swept overboard from a clipper boat. These crew are pretty well trained for an amateur and the person was tethered in, yet he still was separated from the boat. Sometimes things just happen despite precautions and age sometimes has nothing to do with it.

[hpeer]

FWIW this thread prompted us to buy a pair of PLBs, sat type.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by hpeer

FWIW this thread prompted us to buy a pair of PLBs, sat type.

that makes me feel like all the arguments on this thread are actually worth it.
Now lets hope you never need them.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by hpeer

FWIW this thread prompted us to buy a pair of PLBs, sat type.

Hope it doesn't make you more confident and therefore more likely to fall overboard.

As an aside; Preparing for offshore I discovered my list of compulsary safety gear such as life jackets, life rings, lifeboat, needed to be labelled with name of vessel. This seemed to imply that the SAR expected it would be picking up a body which couldn't confirm its identity.
Interestingly they never required a report on the health of my battery system. It dawned on me that some of the rules were more about the post mortem report than my safety at sea.

[davil]

Originally Posted by Polux

Do you know if he had a stroke and went overboard due to that? The chances of having a stroke or felling dizzy with a blood tension problem are hugely bigger at 74 than are at 40.

The balance, equilibrium and muscular response to a sudden movement of the boat are also much more accurate and fast on a 40 year old man than on a 74 year old one.

Boy I feel good I overcome my urge to post a reply.

[arsenelupiga]

old age is one reason why cats are getting popular. Easier to handle, more stable, larger platform and less chance of incident, including gennaker/spi handling.

I went overboard 2x on mono and had numerous physical injuries. So far no incident on cat.

[Doug4bass]

Originally Posted by Polux

Do you know if he had a stroke and went overboard due to that? The chances of having a stroke or felling dizzy with a blood tension problem are hugely bigger at 74 than are at 40.



The balance, equilibrium and muscular response to a sudden movement of the boat are also much more accurate and fast on a 40 year old man than on a 74 year old one.

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