Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-07-2021, 16:32   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50’ Bavaria
Posts: 1,843
Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...22July2021.pdf

Looks like Maritime NZ is looking to insist that storm boards are fitted on large (>2sqft) windows for Cat1 now. Currently it's a requirement that they have them available.

Edit: scratch that, they've already changed the regs to require them to be fitted at all times:„
  • 13.11 (K) Change from: Storm coverings are required for all windows more than 1852 cm2 (2sqft) in area „
  • Change to: Storm coverings shall be fitted for all windows more than 1858 cm2 in area

Also tightened up the rules regarding the strength of attachment of the liferaft if attached externally to the boat.

As usual, a reasonably thorough report and a useful read, although nothing in there that wasn't expected. The reports noted that the storm covers weren't fitted, and it was impossible to do so after the window broke because fitting the covers required a drill. Something to bear in mind when sailing in a boat with this kind of huge window...
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 17:02   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,039
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

And the reason you want a strongly built hull:
Quote:
The impact of landing in the trough is likely to have caused the hull, cabin
and deck to flex due to hydraulic forces. This is also likely to have caused pressure within the cabin which, combined
with the flexing, may have caused the windows to blow out. It is noted that prior to the final knockdown, a crewman
observed the cabin flexing due to wave pressure.
__________________
Paul
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 17:14   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50’ Bavaria
Posts: 1,843
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

The question is whether a "strongly built hull", strong enough to resist the kinds of forces encountered when the boat falls off a 5m wave, is compatible with having huge windows. I very much doubt it.

There's a Bavaria Vision just down the pontoon from me, and the window sizes scare me.
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 19:23   #4
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 18,456
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

The repeated comments about the combination of large windows and flexible hulls, when applied to many current production cruising vessels, are kinda scary and make some mockery of CE "A" ratings given to such boats.

One also wonders about certifying storm covers that required a drill to install. That was pretty surprising, and the new requirement that they actually be fitted when going offshore is likely a good response.

Over all, a thought provoking report for sailors in lightweight production boats (and others, of course, as well).

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, reluctantly incarcerated in the POW marina, Hobart, where shore power is assisting our reluctant solar panels in maintaining our life style.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 21:20   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,039
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Jim,
I don't think it is a useful change. Storm covers come from the older days where the port material needed strengthening. I'm not sure what securing plywood or polycarbonate covers is going to help when the hull is flexing.. Maybe an improvement, not a large improvement.
__________________
Paul
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 23:04   #6
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 18,456
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Jim,
I don't think it is a useful change. Storm covers come from the older days where the port material needed strengthening. I'm not sure what securing plywood or polycarbonate covers is going to help when the hull is flexing.. Maybe an improvement, not a large improvement.
Good points, Paul. I guess the cover would mitigate external blows from wave strike, but not just popping out when the hull bends away. But it might help overall... but not as much as buying a stronger boat with smaller lights.

A good friend of ours was hired to deliver a new Bene 47 from France to Oz, back quite a few years ago. This was a chap who had done the old "around alone" RTW race and, after a dismasting some 600 miles W of the Horn, sailed a jury rig to the Falklands and carried on with the race... so not a cowardly fellow. When he arrived he told us he would not ever do such a delivery again, for the boat twisted so much even in mild conditions that he feared for its seaworthiness and his personal well being! convinced me... and those boats were reportedly stiffer than the current crop is.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, reluctantly incarcerated in the POW marina, Hobart, where shore power is assisting our reluctant solar panels in maintaining our life style.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 23:11   #7
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 18,456
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

And whilst thinking about this incident, I wondered (monday quarterback style) if they would not have been better off if they had used their JSD. It has helped so many similar style boats survive heavy wx, yet they chose not to use it. Wonder what their thoughts were on that subject?

Perhaps the drogue that they had on board was not a JSD... not sure about that, but even a single point drogue might have done the job. Evans Starzinger reported using such successfully in well developed storm conditions in the Southern Ocean in a similarly sized (but stronger and heavier) yacht.

We will never know the answer to such after-the-fact questions, but I ponder them none the less!

Jim
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, reluctantly incarcerated in the POW marina, Hobart, where shore power is assisting our reluctant solar panels in maintaining our life style.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2021, 23:49   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: New Zealand
Boat: 50’ Bavaria
Posts: 1,843
Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

A jsd is the first thing I thought of when I read about the conditions. Running downwind in those conditions is a hell of a job
Tillsbury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 02:00   #9
Deep Water Deliveries
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 27,443
Images: 2
pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
The repeated comments about the combination of large windows and flexible hulls, when applied to many current production cruising vessels, are kinda scary and make some mockery of CE "A" ratings given to such boats.

One also wonders about certifying storm covers that required a drill to install. That was pretty surprising, and the new requirement that they actually be fitted when going offshore is likely a good response.

Over all, a thought provoking report for sailors in lightweight production boats (and others, of course, as well).

Jim
Jim.. you are saying what I have been saying for years.
The CE rating is a joke where boats are built to the minimum acceptable standard and is awarded by the people who build them.
They may be capable of surviving the winds and sea's they are allegedly capable of withstanding for a few hours however, sustained conditions over a longer period of time reduces odds of survival as each hour passes.
What do you think getting a CE certification on a non CE boat concerns.. a sea trial, an in depth survey.???
No, its a cursory inspection to check gas lockers, ventilation etc and hand out a bunch of stickers for your toilet etc..
Price... around £12,000.
__________________


Born to be Wild.
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 02:23   #10
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 15,669
Images: 3
Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Jim.. you are saying what I have been saying for years.
The CE rating is a joke where boats are built to the minimum acceptable standard and is awarded by the people who build them.
They may be capable of surviving the winds and sea's they are allegedly capable of withstanding for a few hours however, sustained conditions over a longer period of time reduces odds of survival as each hour passes.
What do you think getting a CE certification on a non CE boat concerns.. a sea trial, an in depth survey.???
No, its a cursory inspection to check gas lockers, ventilation etc and hand out a bunch of stickers for your toilet etc..
Price... around £12,000.


Clearly you know very very little about post construction RCD compliance ( please stop calling it CE ) you know very little about the RCD process at all. I had two done on American boats. ( by CE proof on the Hamble )

Please stop spouting nonsense

( CE compliance marking applies to a huge swade of appliances , tools and other devices in compliance with a whole myriad of directives and regulations )
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 02:31   #11
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 15,669
Images: 3
Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Clearly you know very very little about post construction RCD compliance ( please stop calling it CE ) you know very little about the RCD process at all.

Please stop spouting nonsense


The RCD was largely fostered on the industry’s by now failed British boat builders and the BMIF who wanted to circumvent individual European boat approvals processes ( largely Italian , German and French ) of course by the time thE RCD was finalised and everyone had put their “ oar in “ the British boat industry had gone virtually bankrupt. The bmif lobbied extensively in Brussels( with paid lobbyists ) for its introduction ( they didn’t quite like how it ended up mind you)

RCD has a classification system Class A saying the boat should withstand winds above F8 and seas over 4m. I suspect all Class A boats will do that.

However it does not mean a boat can survive abnormal situations or being badly sailed.

The origin of RCD was that it designed as a general purpose catch all standard. It’s about the only comprehensive legally binding one in the world. It’s not perfect but it has evolved substantially over its lifetime especially with the addition of more ISO specifications.

AWBs cross oceans and handle bad storms every day. I’ve delivered several through bad ones

But “ Sh!t“ happens occasionally
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 02:50   #12
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 15,669
Images: 3
Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

The boat survived multiple severe knockdowns.

The report makes no criticism of the RCD nor of the boats basic construction ( the ocean series is very strongly constructed )

The boat was in compliance with NZ regs.

However it had not fitted the window protectors which it carried and the report blamed that as the primary cause of the foundering

It also mentioned the wisdom of sailing into the dangerous quadrant in a forecasted storm.

Nothing in that report highlights a fundamental issue with the RCD

As the report says “ had the storm boards been fitted the boat would not have foundered “

Mind you they were in their fourth severe knockdown. Knockdowns break stuff. I don’t think the crew or the boat could have handled repeated and sustained knockdowns.

The decision not to deploy the drogue was interesting “ they felt it was to dangerous “ or to hove-to ( I would agree with that assessment )

My own experience in a 45 DS in a storm gusting F11 in the Atlantic was that trailing warps to help keep the stern from broaching was a key factor in surviving. I don’t like drogues per se as I think they are too agressive for modern spade hung rudder controlled boats.

In my opinion the knockdowns would have continued till something major failed ( they had already damaged the Bimini and solar )

Reading the report , experienced people in a strong boat ended up in the wrong place and the wrong time. Nature always wins
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 02:52   #13
Deep Water Deliveries
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 27,443
Images: 2
pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Clearly you know very very little about post construction RCD compliance ( please stop calling it CE ) you know very little about the RCD process at all. The CE Yacht Compliance Classification System is the European (CE stands for “ Conformité Européenne ” in French) dictating the standards for CE Certification for construction and sale of boats. Vessels in one of the categories of controlled products cannot be legally sold in the EU unless they have passed the tests to receive the CE Certification.

Please stop spouting nonsense

( CE compliance marking applies to a huge swade of appliances , tools and other devices in compliance with a whole myriad of directives and regulations )
Whatever..
You call for me to stop calling it CE yet... you do exactly the same.


The CE Yacht Compliance Classification System is the European (CE stands for “ Conformité Européenne ” in French) dictating the standards for CE Certification for construction and sale of boats. Vessels in one of the categories of controlled products cannot be legally sold in the EU unless they have passed the tests to receive the CE Certification.

CE CERTIFICATION SERVICE

IMCI - The leader in CErtification in the recreational boating industry under the Recreational Craft Directive 2013/53/EU (RCD)
The RCD is a regulation at European Union (EU) level to ensure sustainable development from an economic, social and environmental perspective. Watercraft and their components sold in the EU must comply with harmonised technical safety and environmental requirements and meet the administrative obligations defined by the RCD.

These safety and environmental requirements refer to the design and construction of the craft with specific limits for exhaust and noise emissions as well as for some of the craft’s components.

RCD requires that manufacturers keep a technical file of all relevant data and officially declare the conformity of their products. A CE marking must be affixed to the product and users must be provided with detailed information about safety and maintenance.

These products are covered by the RCD
Recreational craft between 2.5 and 24 m hull length
Personal watercraft
Used and converted watercraft
Marine components
Marine engines
Details of the certification process
A product can only be CE-marked after its successful assessment by IMCI. In order to achieve this IMCI

checks the relevant technical files, and
physically inspects most products.
The inspections are done by CE-Inspectors of IMCI directly at the manufacturer’s facilities. The Inspector co-operates closely with the IMCI headquarters in Belgium which, after a positive assessment, issues the CE certificate. After that the manufacturer can issue his Declaration of Conformity.
__________________


Born to be Wild.
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 03:01   #14
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 15,669
Images: 3
Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

The directive is the RCD, likewise the CE compliance symbol is applied to machinery which must comply with the machinery directive, similarity CE for EMI interference in certain appliances etc
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-07-2021, 03:11   #15
Deep Water Deliveries
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 27,443
Images: 2
pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote...
The Recreational Craft directive sets minimum requirements for a boat which guarantee its suitability for sale and use within the European Union. They basically get CE marks. There are four categories (A, B, C & D) which are based on wind and wave conditions likely to be experienced covering Ocean, Offshore, Coastal and Sheltered Waters.


Enough said..


__________________


Born to be Wild.
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
yacht, enc

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Report on yacht collision in Ireland in 2019 (report on findings) B23iL23 Emergency, Disaster and Distress 153 29-09-2020 09:19
Cheeki Rafiki loss report Seymore Seamanship & Boat Handling 361 13-10-2016 15:15
Report into Sinking of UK Yacht swagman General Sailing Forum 15 13-04-2007 15:17

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.