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Old 26-07-2021, 10:37   #76
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

We have a large pilothouse with large windows, the option for storm boards was with thick polycarbonate shutters so we could see out. They are 1/2" thick. At dockside, they would likely protect against flotsam hitting the pilothouse windows, also of polycarbonate.
Breaking fro flexing would definitely be a frame construction problem, in my opinion.
Ratings don't guarantee safety in dicey conditions.
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Old 26-07-2021, 10:47   #77
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nothing about Brexit is a benefit that’s for sure ( well ok 2litres of gin in Stanstead was only £20)
Gotta laugh...
Loadsa folks whinging about selfish non vaxers yet here we have a handful of selfish yachties whinging about how hard Brexit is for them.. so sad..
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Old 26-07-2021, 12:09   #78
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Easy for you to say that still lives in the EU! If you were to move back here you would find more than a few complaining about Brexit.
My memory of Med life is the Brits come out for June, July and August to get their boats outa the marina's for the expensive 'High Season' then mooch back to the marina's then fly home.. next seen in December when the boat becomes a floating cottage by the sea for the worst of the UK winter.
90 - 180 is an easy fit..
As for me.. Brexit had been on the cards for a over decade for realists who made the needed adjustments, don't blame lack of foresight on others..
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Old 26-07-2021, 12:18   #79
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/comme...22July2021.pdf

Looks like Maritime NZ is looking to insist that storm boards are fitted on large (>2sqft) windows for Cat1 now. Currently it's a requirement that they have them available.

Edit: scratch that, they've already changed the regs to require them to be fitted at all times:„
  • 13.11 (K) Change from: Storm coverings are required for all windows more than 1852 cm2 (2sqft) in area „
  • Change to: Storm coverings shall be fitted for all windows more than 1858 cm2 in area

Also tightened up the rules regarding the strength of attachment of the liferaft if attached externally to the boat.

As usual, a reasonably thorough report and a useful read, although nothing in there that wasn't expected. The reports noted that the storm covers weren't fitted, and it was impossible to do so after the window broke because fitting the covers required a drill. Something to bear in mind when sailing in a boat with this kind of huge window...
Is Bavaria and other manufacturers of blue water boats with large window areas now going to issue warnings to prospective and present owners of this danger with suggested modifications when appropriate? LOL. Buyer beware.

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Old 26-07-2021, 12:28   #80
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Our current yacht is one of the very few that was supplied from the factory with storm covers for all windows. However, in my view the requirements of the NZ authorities are wrong.

It should be the determination of each skipper what equipment and saftey gear is appropriate for their vessel.

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Old 26-07-2021, 13:32   #81
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Lots of good points in these threads. They wont change the outcome, but may alert some sailors to the worst conditions that exist, and seem to be getting more severe. Relying on weather routing to avoid the worst storm quadrant is more often used these days at our peril. Modern yachts are not built to take the conditions that exist.

If you want further information, order "The Final Voyage of the Essence" by Bruce Goodwin. text +6427220 9820 Proceeds to the Bay of Plenty Sailing Academy Trust.

My thoughts are with all involved - they have provided valuable information
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Old 26-07-2021, 16:28   #82
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

I had very mixed feelings reading that report. Mostly I was thinking I wished the crew had done something differently. But on reflection I wonder if I or anyone could have done any better.

I have sailed that course several times in weather up to storm conditions and I have tried to dodge the lows and failed. I do not think turning upwind to avoid the dangerous quadrant would have worked because the low would be going the same way. I can understand the temptation of heading for Opua, because I have done the same, but while I sailed upwind to Opua they were forced into the most dangerous conditions on that coast, downwind with a NE gale. Downwind usually feels better in a yacht but I believe it to be the most dangerous course in a storm.

What annoys me most about this is another piece of pointless bureaucracy regarding sailing. As if a couple of pieces of plywood could save a yacht exposed to repeated knockdowns.
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Old 26-07-2021, 16:43   #83
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Having read many air accident and marine acident reports , it strikes me that marine accidents are lightly investigated and many times the boat is lost and the conclusions are often based on the crews opinions ( and biases )

I know of several cases where I was personally aware of the circumstances but where the subsequent report grabbed the complete wrong end of the stick. I also know where death is involved, such reports are reluctant to criticize the dead and often seek “ structural “ reasons for the cause
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Old 26-07-2021, 17:01   #84
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Good points, Paul. I guess the cover would mitigate external blows from wave strike, but not just popping out when the hull bends away. But it might help overall... but not as much as buying a stronger boat with smaller lights.



A good friend of ours was hired to deliver a new Bene 47 from France to Oz, back quite a few years ago. This was a chap who had done the old "around alone" RTW race and, after a dismasting some 600 miles W of the Horn, sailed a jury rig to the Falklands and carried on with the race... so not a cowardly fellow. When he arrived he told us he would not ever do such a delivery again, for the boat twisted so much even in mild conditions that he feared for its seaworthiness and his personal well being! convinced me... and those boats were reportedly stiffer than the current crop is.



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So much for Beneteaus, party boats.
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Old 26-07-2021, 20:44   #85
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Yeah, boards over windows might have helped, but it seems the "accepted methodologies" for yacht construction at Beneteau, for example, are 'built down to a price'...and so must also be 'built down to the lowest standard allowed' as others have suggested.
Look at Expedition Evans Benny 49, of which I'm sure lots of CF readers are aware. 'Severe grounding' saw the lattice-like 'floors' of the boat detach from the hull, leading to insurance write-off. Two noobs took a punt they could fix it cheap enough to get an otherwise nice boat for cheap. Took more work than they hoped, but the boat is now (according to their surveyor) better built than it was from the factory.
Apparently, the 'floors' were just 'glued' to the hull with some sort of 'bondo' or 'adhesive' rather than being properly tabbed with fibreglass.
"Properly" in this case being arguable, but apparently merited, according to the surveyor's report.
So if the 'floors' are also "CE-approved" then this would appear to be another example of 'built too light' in order to keep the price down for marketing purposes (and profits up for the shareholders).
I'm not sure that there is a solution that would be acceptable for those of us who'd prefer a better built boat, other than to not buy a Beneteau (et al), and instead opt for a custom job or a more expensive and also better built) boat from a different yard.
But perhaps the CE standard that *apparently* indicates vessels so-constructed are safe and sound and Bristol fashion, could be downgraded to 'coastal use only' in 'up to Force 5' - or something else that would limit their exposure to Storm conditions, but still enable the normal usage by 90% of owners/charterers.
And THEN produce a higher standard that is more explicitly for 'severe ocean storm survival conditions'....that might include fitting of storm shutters and carriage of a JSD, and crew trained to deploy both..??
Then again, 27' Albin Vega's have been known to sail round the southern capes, and survive, so luck (or lack of it) and skipper resilience and forethought probably play as big a part in any individual vessels survival, or not, as the case may be.
Can't regulate against stupidity...
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Old 27-07-2021, 07:59   #86
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Interesting. I owned and sailed many large ocean passages with my Cal 2-46 that you may know has lots of large window. Most of us carried boards for the windows but almost never used. And I don’t know of them being knowcked out or popped out. Many of there boats have circumnavigated. And this is despite the fact that they were designed and built in the early seventies. Amazing boats way ahead of their time.
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Old 27-07-2021, 08:41   #87
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Interesting. I owned and sailed many large ocean passages with my Cal 2-46 that you may know has lots of large window. Most of us carried boards for the windows but almost never used. And I don’t know of them being knowcked out or popped out. Many of there boats have circumnavigated. And this is despite the fact that they were designed and built in the early seventies. Amazing boats way ahead of their time.
Boats of their time.. when quality was a desired standard.
Sadly today profits and shareholders come before ethics.
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Old 27-07-2021, 13:16   #88
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
Yeah, boards over windows might have helped, but it seems the "accepted methodologies" for yacht construction at Beneteau, for example, are 'built down to a price'...and so must also be 'built down to the lowest standard allowed' as others have suggested.
Look at Expedition Evans Benny 49, of which I'm sure lots of CF readers are aware. 'Severe grounding' saw the lattice-like 'floors' of the boat detach from the hull, leading to insurance write-off. Two noobs took a punt they could fix it cheap enough to get an otherwise nice boat for cheap. Took more work than they hoped, but the boat is now (according to their surveyor) better built than it was from the factory.
Apparently, the 'floors' were just 'glued' to the hull with some sort of 'bondo' or 'adhesive' rather than being properly tabbed with fibreglass.
"Properly" in this case being arguable, but apparently merited, according to the surveyor's report.
So if the 'floors' are also "CE-approved" then this would appear to be another example of 'built too light' in order to keep the price down for marketing purposes (and profits up for the shareholders).
I'm not sure that there is a solution that would be acceptable for those of us who'd prefer a better built boat, other than to not buy a Beneteau (et al), and instead opt for a custom job or a more expensive and also better built) boat from a different yard.
But perhaps the CE standard that *apparently* indicates vessels so-constructed are safe and sound and Bristol fashion, could be downgraded to 'coastal use only' in 'up to Force 5' - or something else that would limit their exposure to Storm conditions, but still enable the normal usage by 90% of owners/charterers.
And THEN produce a higher standard that is more explicitly for 'severe ocean storm survival conditions'....that might include fitting of storm shutters and carriage of a JSD, and crew trained to deploy both..??
Then again, 27' Albin Vega's have been known to sail round the southern capes, and survive, so luck (or lack of it) and skipper resilience and forethought probably play as big a part in any individual vessels survival, or not, as the case may be.
Can't regulate against stupidity...


Class A+. Market size 10 people Cost of 40 footer 1million euros

Seriously

Really none is for img these people to buy Bavaria’s Beneteau etc. None is forcing them to sail into a bad gale

The crew stated “ they felt the yacht was up to the conditions “
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Old 27-07-2021, 14:48   #89
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Class A+. Market size 10 people Cost of 40 footer 1million euros

Seriously

Really none is for img these people to buy Bavaria’s Beneteau etc. None is forcing them to sail into a bad gale

The crew stated “ they felt the yacht was up to the conditions “
A crew reckoned that about another boat.. the Titanic.
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Old 27-07-2021, 16:54   #90
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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The crew stated “ they felt the yacht was up to the conditions “
Seems that they might have been wrong. Question is why they felt so confident? Was it due to the "A" rating, or some other factor? We will never know...

I still reckon that they would have been better off running off with their drogue deployed to keep the speed down... but I wasn't there and I've never sailed on their boat, so it is sheer internet wisdom on my part. Yet, persisting in a mode that lead to repeated knockdowns is questionable procedure IMO.

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