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Old 22-07-2021, 03:16   #16
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

There's always something to be learned or at least reminded about by reading these reports.
I had not considered the possibility of the opposite side windows blowing outward in a knockdown due to cabin flex/hydraulic forces.
That is worth considering when designing and fixing storm coverings.
The irony is surely that the example of storm covering given on page 13 of the report (being some sort of plexi/acrylic screwed over the window with a handful of 10G screws) doesn't look to me as though it would provide much protection in this type of event.
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:18   #17
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

And the Market Protection Farce continues..

Owners and brokers of second hand boats, who want to sell between the UK and the EU, will face an additional bill of between £500-£5,000 for a Post Construction Assessment and third-party verification.

Both the UK and EU have confirmed that any vessel being traded second-hand between the UK and EU will be required to meet the obligations set out in either the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) in the EU or the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) in the UK when placed on either market after the 1 January 2021.

A pre-owned vessel being imported from the EU to be placed on the UK market will, after 1 January 2022 (due to the one year grace period the UK has given to CE marked new products being placed on the UK market), be required to obtain a new UK Conformity Assessed (UKCA) mark in line with the requirements of the RCR.

In order to obtain a UKCA mark, a boat will require a Post Construction Assessment and third-party verification.

Similar rules will apply when selling vessels into the EU.

Pre-owned CE marked vessels which were in the UK at the end of the Brexit transition period (31 December 2020), when exported to the EU will be required to undergo a recertification of the CE mark when being placed on the EU market.


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Old 22-07-2021, 03:20   #18
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Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Quote...

The Recreational Craft directive sets minimum requirements for a boat which guarantee its suitability for sale and use within the European Union. They basically get CE marks. There are four categories (A, B, C & D) which are based on wind and wave conditions likely to be experienced covering Ocean, Offshore, Coastal and Sheltered Waters.





Enough said..







Wink wink wink

All standards are essentially ď minimumsĒ. Doesnít make any sense to have ď maximums ď wink wink

As if you actually know something have you actually engaged a reputable CE named body , have you seen the process of certifying a series production yacht

No clearly you havenít ,

The RCD isnt perfect , like all such systems it has gaps and is being constantly amended and improved

Again this report offers ZERO criticism of the classification system

Wink wink
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:23   #19
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Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Originally Posted by NevilleCat View Post
There's always something to be learned or at least reminded about by reading these reports.
I had not considered the possibility of the opposite side windows blowing outward in a knockdown due to cabin flex/hydraulic forces.
That is worth considering when designing and fixing storm coverings.
The irony is surely that the example of storm covering given on page 13 of the report (being some sort of plexi/acrylic screwed over the window with a handful of 10G screws) doesn't look to me as though it would provide much protection in this type of event.


There is an unresolved issue as to whether the forward hatch opened or wasnít properly secured or blew out ( interestingly it was successful closed which suggests it wasnít damaged )

An open hatch could have resulted in significant water ingress a build up of tremendous pressure and blowing the windows out.

Itís debatable whether the storms boards would have done much here as typically they are designed to use the hull as support rather then solely relying on their fixings.

Clearly the issue of inside forces ( air pressure ) etc blowing out the windows would be hard to design out.

The issue of the loud ď booming noise ď would suggest air pressure was the issue ie explosive decompression

Again I wonder if the forward hatch become unsecured in a previous knockdown and wasnt noticed.
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:28   #20
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Wink wink wink

As if you actually know something have you actually engaged a reputable CE named body , have you seen the process of certifying a series production yacht

No clearly you havenít ,

The RCD isnt perfect , like all such systems it has gaps and is being constantly amended and improved

Again this report offers ZERO criticism of the classification system

Wink wink
It verifies my original statement that yachts in the EU are built to the Minimum Possible Standard to comply with CE conformity..
As opposed to the Lloyds 100A1 which is a build to the highest standard.
I never said anything else..
Its you that is jumping on a soap box to desperately try and refute a fact..
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:32   #21
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Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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It verifies my original statement that yachts in the EU are built to the Minimum Possible Standard to comply with CE conformity..

As opposed to the Lloyds 100A1 which is a build to the highest standard.

I never said anything else..

Its you that is jumping on a soap box to desperately try and refute a fact..


Blah blah Lloyds 100A1 brits into the sunset Itís Over mate the industry went bankrupt

All standards by there nature are minimums , builder build to the standard they donít build above the standard. Thatís silly unless you have a specific purpose in mind

This boat sank for some specific reasons due to forces from within the boat and itís unclear exactly what forces as the report cannot ascertain exactly what occurred in those moments.

100A1 wouldnít hAve made any difference
Maltese 100/A1 required ongoing inspection and recertification , itís an impractical standard for recreational yachts and so is ABS or DeNorskVeritas( which is arguably the best )

The classification argument is nonsense anyway as any sea condition can break a boat especially a small boat and so much depends on the immediate actions of the skipper and crew.

Build yachts to survive abnormal conditions and the fact is nobody will buy them except the super rich

Itís a 47 foot production cruiser and a good example of a well built strong model. ( the ocean range in particular )

Sometimes sh!t happens. Thank fully itís rare

Nothing wrong with that boat.
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:41   #22
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Jim.. you are saying what I have been saying for years.
The CE rating is a joke where boats are built to the minimum acceptable standard and is awarded by the people who build them.
They may be capable of surviving the winds and sea's they are allegedly capable of withstanding for a few hours however, sustained conditions over a longer period of time reduces odds of survival as each hour passes.
What do you think getting a CE certification on a non CE boat concerns.. a sea trial, an in depth survey.???
No, its a cursory inspection to check gas lockers, ventilation etc and hand out a bunch of stickers for your toilet etc..
Price... around £12,000.
Unfortunately, I agree. It is sad that boat owners effectively must pay considerable sums of money for something that is in my view largely worthless. The same applies to anchor standards.

It is time to have these standards changed so they actually do some good.
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:49   #23
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Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Unfortunately, I agree. It is sad that boat owners effectively must pay considerable sums of money for something that is in my view largely worthless. The same applies to anchor standards.



It is time to have these standards changed so they actually do some good.


You are mistaken

Itís a balance between creating something thatís results in huge additional costs to achieve edge solutions resulting in a boat nobody will buy.

Maltese 100/A1 is not designed for high volume series builds not its specifications are easy to havdle in small boats. As a result itís not used to any extent.

This isnít a failure of classification itís a failure to think of all solutions to unknown problems.

Again had the boat skipper actually fitted the storm boards he carried the reports suggests heíd live to tell the tale.

Nothing stoping the U.K. recreational yacht industry from inventing its own standards and applying them to its yacht industry ... oh wait !!
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Old 22-07-2021, 03:52   #24
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pirate Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Blah blah Lloyds 100A1 brits into the sunset It’s Over mate the industry went bankrupt

All standards by there nature are minimums , builder build to the standard they don’t build above the standard. That’s silly unless you have a specific purpose in mind

This boat sank for some specific reasons due to forces from within the boat and it’s unclear exactly what forces as the report cannot ascertain exactly what occurred in those moments.

100A1 wouldn’t hAve made any difference
Maltese 100/A1 required ongoing inspection and recertification , it’s an impractical standard for recreational yachts and so is ABS or DeNorskVeritas( which is arguably the best )

The classification argument is nonsense anyway as any sea condition can break a boat especially a small boat and so much depends on the immediate actions of the skipper and crew.
Naturally..
Lloyds is an expensive process which requires each stage of construction to be signed off by a surveyor and the use of the best quality materials in the build to qualify for +100A1.. not possible on a production line where quality control is debatable.
Would that Bavaria, or a Beneteau 47 for example meet those standards.???
I doubt it.. but you get what you pay for, why do you think the Chinese economy took off back in the last century, cheap n cheerful to throw away when it breaks and buy another one.
Lagoon 450 seems to be having problems.
As they say, the customer sets the standards, if your standards are low then don't cry when things go wrong.
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Old 22-07-2021, 04:02   #25
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
There is an unresolved issue as to whether the forward hatch opened or wasnít properly secured or blew out ( interestingly it was successful closed which suggests it wasnít damaged )

An open hatch could have resulted in significant water ingress a build up of tremendous pressure and blowing the windows out.

Itís debatable whether the storms boards would have done much here as typically they are designed to use the hull as support rather then solely relying on their fixings.

Clearly the issue of inside forces ( air pressure ) etc blowing out the windows would be hard to design out.

The issue of the loud ď booming noise ď would suggest air pressure was the issue ie explosive decompression

Again I wonder if the forward hatch become unsecured in a previous knockdown and wasnt noticed.
Thanks, that sounds like the likeliest possibility.
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Old 22-07-2021, 04:03   #26
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Unfortunately, I agree. It is sad that boat owners effectively must pay considerable sums of money for something that is in my view largely worthless. The same applies to anchor standards.

It is time to have these standards changed so they actually do some good.

I see the rating system the same as I see diplomas or any other societal verification of individuals...

I also believe that one has to trust the builder. No design survives a shoddy implementation. When builders start building to a rating system and a price the margin of error becomes tighter and things start popping out.

It is unfortunate that shoppers and builders aren't more honest with each other.
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Old 22-07-2021, 05:11   #27
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

At the outset, I agree storm boards are needed, and firmly feel that new vessels should be pre-fitted with them. Hell someone just spent $1.5-$2 Mil on a cat, what would pre-fitted boards, with recessed bolt receivers cost? $3K to make??

BUT--- The report fails to analyze the root causes of the loss- apparent absence of updated weather and hubris. The report states the vessel received departure guidance from a weather router on the 7th, but not full passage planning. The report makes no mentioned of satellite weather updates received on board prior to the loss on the 14th. It would be interesting to see the weather forecast issued 12,24 and 36 hours before the loss. Stated differently, Would having a satellite system to receive weather have made a difference?

Feel free to call me a wuss- but on a delivery, if at all possible, I do not route into winds above 25 knots. As we all know if the forecast is 25, expect gusts well over 30. As above, analyzing the weather forecasts 12, 24 and 36 hours before the loss would be informative.
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Old 22-07-2021, 05:18   #28
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Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

The point is the RCD is not the same as things like Maltese 100A1 or ABS or DeNorkVeritas

These apply individually to every vessel built and are simply not suitable for series built high volume relatively low cost recreational yachts

The RCD was largely created to level the playing field and to prevent national standards say like RINA from excluding other countries boats

In the start the RCD had very few technical standards suitable for small boats and only over time had the ISO standards been drawn up.

Over time the iso standards are now being applied to all aspects of the boat .

But itís not a quality system like the classification systems nor was it designed to be.

People throwing ď wink winkĒ at the standards process clearly havenít seen the process on action for a manufacturer it has added serious complications and the named bodies have a reputation to uphold

Hence in Europe given competing national standards itís a no brainier

The alternative is a race to the bottom with rubbish coming in from the Far East , Asia etc.

Europe dominates the worldwide sailing yacht market because it makes a product people want at a price they are willing to pay and that product ď in the main ď does what asked of it. If they didnít like it they wonít buy it.
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Old 22-07-2021, 07:47   #29
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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At the outset, I agree storm boards are needed, and firmly feel that new vessels should be pre-fitted with them. Hell someone just spent $1.5-$2 Mil on a cat, what would pre-fitted boards, with recessed bolt receivers cost? $3K to make??

BUT--- The report fails to analyze the root causes of the loss- apparent absence of updated weather and hubris. The report states the vessel received departure guidance from a weather router on the 7th, but not full passage planning. The report makes no mentioned of satellite weather updates received on board prior to the loss on the 14th. It would be interesting to see the weather forecast issued 12,24 and 36 hours before the loss. Stated differently, Would having a satellite system to receive weather have made a difference?

Feel free to call me a wuss- but on a delivery, if at all possible, I do not route into winds above 25 knots. As we all know if the forecast is 25, expect gusts well over 30. As above, analyzing the weather forecasts 12, 24 and 36 hours before the loss would be informative.
They did get updated weather. With this info they decided to change course and head for the Bay of Islands, a location that has a wide mouth and is easy to enter and offers multiple anchorages with protection from all directions plus a large marina.

I just can't agree with the conclusion of this report that that the yacht would have been saved if they had fitted storm boards. The added structural strength from these boards is minor and not going to overcome a flexing hull.
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Old 22-07-2021, 07:52   #30
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Re: Maritime NZ report into the loss of the yacht Essence, October 2019

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They did get updated weather. With this info they decided to change course and head for the Bay of Islands, a location that has a wide mouth and is easy to enter and offers multiple anchorages with protection from all directions plus a large marina.



I just can't agree with the conclusion of this report that that the yacht would have been saved if they had fitted storm boards. The added structural strength from these boards is minor and not going to overcome a flexing hull.


The report surmises a flexing hull

The fact is there was some form of explosive decompression as the windows were forced outwards.

It could equally have been air pressure from water coming in the hatch
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