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Old 22-02-2017, 12:46   #1
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Making Offers

So i'm addicted to looking at sailboats that are for sell. I have noticed that many boats especially the older more expensive yachts (i.e. 1970-1980s for 100k +) appear to stay on the market for a long time (a year or more). I am not in the market at the moment but curiosity brings me to ask how someone determines what they will offer?

If there are 2-3 boats about the same year and vary in prices but have all been on the market close to the same amount of time it has to be hard to determine what the actual price of the boat is. I see boats all the time were they say major reduction for a quick sell and think there is no way in heavens I would even pay that price for that boat.

What are peoples thoughts?

So I have seen Endeavour 42s from the late 70s and early 80s for 70k plus and know that they have issues with their waste tank. I personally would have a hard time paying that knowing that the boat is going to need that gutted and replaced.
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Old 22-02-2017, 12:52   #2
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Re: Making Offers

I should clarify the E42 are mid 80s.
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Old 22-02-2017, 13:53   #3
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Re: Making Offers

Hi Kmart, I notice the same thing, with all price range and ages. some boats have been listed for over a year, "big price reduction in description" no price change all year.

Market value of a boat is pretty straight forward, Look at recent sales in the same area of the same type of yacht in similar condition/age/refit upgrade history, as well as currently available for sale competing inventory

Some people want much more than current market value for their boats, especially some that are in poor condition, but its like anything else, real estate, cars etc...

I imagine huge outlays of cash on boat maintenance and upgrades are hard to swallow and take the loss on. so an unusually high price may be set based on sellers costs rather than likely selling price.

There is also the attachment to a boat that can develop, and the dream that goes with it, things that must be handled carefully to avoid upsetting folks who are parting with a beloved boat or facing reality about their possibly unfulfilled dream.

I have been looking for quite some time, and I do quit a lot of research. I do the same with real estate. Determining actual value and likely sales price becomes clear with more detailed analysis.

I notice boats that are underpriced are often saddled with an expensive issue or several like repower needed, soft decks, garbage sails, on the hard for years with mast down, etc. rare is the well maintained pristine example at current market pricing. These last about 30 minutes. Making an offer over asking price in this case may be warranted, especially if your high offer is still under value, because there will be stiff competition for the boat. of course contingent on survey sea trial blah blah blah.

I gave up looking in places any significant distance from me, because I need to be able to go see the boat on short notice, and do a detailed evaluation before I can really determine actual value. rare is the ad with enough pictures to qualify a boat. I wish people would just show stringers, engine, chainplates, closeups of standing rigging, deck fitting close ups, hulls on the hard or hanging in slings, hull to deck joint, ports, give a list of sails and age, list of included equipment, and verifiable maintenance history. pictures of the cushions, place settings with wine glasses at the dinette, and descriptions of "cabin layout" are what I see more often though.

best of luck with your search!
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Old 22-02-2017, 14:27   #4
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Re: Making Offers

Boats in good shape and priced correctly sell within a month or two. The rest are either in rough shape, too high asking price, seller not really motivated to sell, too far from where the majority of potential buyers are or all of the above.
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Old 22-02-2017, 17:25   #5
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Re: Making Offers

Quote:
Originally Posted by nematon785 View Post
Hi Kmart, I notice the same thing, with all price range and ages. some boats have been listed for over a year, "big price reduction in description" no price change all year.

Market value of a boat is pretty straight forward, Look at recent sales in the same area of the same type of yacht in similar condition/age/refit upgrade history, as well as currently available for sale competing inventory

Some people want much more than current market value for their boats, especially some that are in poor condition, but its like anything else, real estate, cars etc...

I imagine huge outlays of cash on boat maintenance and upgrades are hard to swallow and take the loss on. so an unusually high price may be set based on sellers costs rather than likely selling price.

There is also the attachment to a boat that can develop, and the dream that goes with it, things that must be handled carefully to avoid upsetting folks who are parting with a beloved boat or facing reality about their possibly unfulfilled dream.

I have been looking for quite some time, and I do quit a lot of research. I do the same with real estate. Determining actual value and likely sales price becomes clear with more detailed analysis.

I notice boats that are underpriced are often saddled with an expensive issue or several like repower needed, soft decks, garbage sails, on the hard for years with mast down, etc. rare is the well maintained pristine example at current market pricing. These last about 30 minutes. Making an offer over asking price in this case may be warranted, especially if your high offer is still under value, because there will be stiff competition for the boat. of course contingent on survey sea trial blah blah blah.

I gave up looking in places any significant distance from me, because I need to be able to go see the boat on short notice, and do a detailed evaluation before I can really determine actual value. rare is the ad with enough pictures to qualify a boat. I wish people would just show stringers, engine, chainplates, closeups of standing rigging, deck fitting close ups, hulls on the hard or hanging in slings, hull to deck joint, ports, give a list of sails and age, list of included equipment, and verifiable maintenance history. pictures of the cushions, place settings with wine glasses at the dinette, and descriptions of "cabin layout" are what I see more often though.

best of luck with your search!
How do you find out what boats have sold, their condition, and their sell price? I mean with homes it is all pretty public. Sometimes the broker will give you information about other sells they have had but I haven't been able to find sold comparables.

There is another thread talking about boats that are for sale and the "don't". I found it interesting. I hate pictures that make no sense, or pictures that have a date stamp on the corner from 3+ years ago. lol I wouldn't not wasting my time even looking at them.
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Old 23-02-2017, 10:04   #6
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Re: Making Offers

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Hi Kmart, I notice the same thing, with all price range and ages. some boats have been listed for over a year, "big price reduction in description" no price change all year.
Amateur marketing psychology 101. They're fooling no-one but themselves.
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Old 23-02-2017, 10:29   #7
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Re: Making Offers

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Amateur marketing psychology 101. They're fooling no-one but themselves.
Why do I care if something overpriced is on sale? "this is a $500 suit!" No, not to me it isn't. Never was.

Is it a fair value now? Bear in mind that with boats, as with most things, real bargains seldom are. IF the person is smart enough to own a nice boat and keep it in good condition, he knows what it is worth. If it's cheap, he either does not know, is hiding something, or it is a model that will be hard to resell. Resale value matters.
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Old 26-02-2017, 18:22   #8
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Re: Making Offers

To find recent sales pricing:

You may be able to request soldboat.com data from a broker if you are working with one.

Or you can use the clues to develop an overall picture. After watching boats for a while they will either sit on the market, or sell. the boats that disappear were priced correctly, if price drops, and drops, and drops, then a boat disappears, the price likely came to the correct level. If it sits and sits and sits, with no price change, obviously too high for it and similar inventory.

After a while you can guess which will sell, and which will sit, with increasing accuracy, and you are developing a solid idea of correct pricing. Actually viewing the boats in person will make your analysis far more accurate.

Not every viewing requires meeting the seller. I am aware of several boats for sale at my local marinas. I can walk by and look at them from the dock, and see volumes of information. I also speak with others who sail out of that marina, and there is always a story for every boat. Then I see them listed on craigslist, the local marina brokers office window, or yachtworld, and the story becomes even more clear. If I can eliminate a boat without wasting peoples (and my own) time, I do it.

Sadly I have learned it really is challenging to find a well taken care of older boat. a lot of neglect seems to occur before a boat is listed for sale, and then a quick clean up and some topside paint gets slapped on. It would seem people take truly good care of boats they want to keep. Low priced older boats are common.

My experience is colored by my shortlist including all older boats. Just like homes, and cars, an older model can be in outstanding condition, and naturally should command a higher than average price. I am ready and willing to pay more than double the average pricing on the models I am looking at to get the right one that is well found. I am also willing to look hard and take as long as it takes to find it.

I have spent a great deal of time learning the value of common equipment such as sails, engines, cost of rigging refits, typical issues associated with the models I want and the cost to fix those issues, and marine survey techniques. I will perform my own survey before I hire it done, and the hired survey should tell me a lot of what I have already learned when I viewed the boat in detail.

It helps that this sort of analysis is fun for me. This is how I establish pricing to value. I hope it may be of some use to you.
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Old 27-02-2017, 05:43   #9
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Re: Making Offers

That's great information. Yea, I am not in a hurry to buy a new to me boat, at least not a cruiser, maybe a j70, viper or melges but there is some time before I make that dream boat happen.
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Old 27-02-2017, 06:15   #10
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Re: Making Offers

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Why do I care if something overpriced is on sale? "this is a $500 suit!" No, not to me it isn't. Never was.

Is it a fair value now? Bear in mind that with boats, as with most things, real bargains seldom are. IF the person is smart enough to own a nice boat and keep it in good condition, he knows what it is worth. If it's cheap, he either does not know, is hiding something, or it is a model that will be hard to resell. Resale value matters.
There are models which are way underpriced because they were made in relatively small numbers, few potential buyers are aware of their quality and the builder's demise was due to "perfect storm" economic situation back in the mid to late 80s. Owned three such boats, all well built (for their purpose and initial price range) and all way underpriced b/c most of the buyers of 30 year old boats only know Hunters on the lower end, Catalinas/Pearsons in the middle and Sabres a notch above. I found out the quality of my very first boat, a 27 footer which was a project (neglect and PO's induced issues) but at $400 with a working diesel was enough of a bargain as a training boat. When my marine buddy was helping me to fix some of the issues, he was very surprised by the quality he found with various systems and the structure itself. I did some research and found out that the builder had 3 factories in US in the late 70s-early 80s (during the height of the sailboat market) and the newest one on West Coast was staffed by hamburger flippers turned "fiberglass technicians" with all the resultant consequences. My particular model was built in the company's first East Coast plant and was made very well. So the brand on the West Coast had a so-so reputation (not helped by the brand's then recent acquisition by Bayliner but having nothing to do with Bayliner built boats) while the East Coast built models were solid as a rock. So by the time I was buying, about 12 years ago, these 27 footers if in decent shape were priced at about 1/2 of the similarly maintained Catalinas, while being in quality on par with Pearsons. Which btw acquired that company's molds and built those 27s under its name for few years until Pearson itself went under in early 90s.

My current 28 footer is from similar situation - well built initially (at least as good as Sabre if not better) but now virtually unknown outside New England area (factory was in NH, lasted about 6 years and built about 200 of them, +/-). I picked it up for $1,500 with non working engine but with brand new sails and dodger, very good B+ cushions, recent electronics, all interior intact and clean (all those + factors overcame the engine issue). Put another $1,500 into a used QM (which included installation with me helping the installer) and I have a great coastal gunkholer (4' draft) at a fraction of what a Sabre 28 of similar vintage and condition would cost me. Not to mention valuable learning experience installing the engine. (Hint: it's not a rocket science either, just have to know step by step what to do and not to do. ) Now of course I could have picked up a turn key boat for $5K-10K but IMO any of those would still have some issues (as any 35 year old boat would) and no guarantee that those issues would be as cheaply fixed as $1,500.

And the resale value will be based on the boat's condition and the market it is being sold in. My first boat purchased for $400 with a working diesel was sold by me 5 years later by then without the diesel and with a finicky Evinrude on the transom for $1,200. A friend sold his Niagara 35 which he picked up for around $12K and spruced up for a liveaboard (but the family situation forced a sale) for around $20K and only that low b/c he was under pressure to sell, otherwise it was a $30K boat by the time he finished with a spruce up (which cost him about $3K).

Sure if you want a turn key boat in pristine condition the deals are very few, if any. But those on a tight budget can still get their dream boat if they're willing to put some sweat equity, and time, into her. Just have to be smart about your expenses. For example I would never in my life put a brand new engine in a 35 year old boat, no matter how attached I was to her. But also I would never let this thinking prevent me from owning and sailing a decent little old boat so I compromised with a solid old Yamnar which my marine pro buddy checked out and found fine to install, provided I take care of it going forward. So with my thinking the resale value can be zero and it's OK. Because I spent on my boat less than a season at the sailing club would cost me. And going forward my total annual expenses are about 1/3 to 1/2 of the club fees. So that's the real value of the boat to me and not what the next owner is willing to pay.

PS Sorry for such a long post as it is still winter here and I need to occupy my out of the office time.
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