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Old 12-04-2018, 08:40   #46
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

This just popped up in my feed.

How to Save the World in 6 Seconds

https://youtu.be/jIWqGroEibw

Just speechless, so so angry .

This timeline just sux so bad
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:35   #47
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
This just popped up in my feed.

How to Save the World in 6 Seconds

https://youtu.be/jIWqGroEibw

Just speechless, so so angry .

This timeline just sux so bad
dont buy and dump plastic ****
this isnt difficult
dont get mad, get even at those producers
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:19   #48
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

There is a strong voice in Puget Sound....

https://pugetsoundkeeper.org/

They are one of the voices that shape policy there. And, as noted there is not a single voice from boat owners that has the stature to be heard. Also, Those rich yatties are part of the 1% problem to many (oh how untrue).

As I recall marine service providers in Puget Sound are required to clean up copper in the runoff (from public streets - think brake dust) that runs through their property on its way to the sound - to the tune of hundreds of thousand dollars.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:30   #49
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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Originally Posted by MarkusK View Post
What fines?

November 2015: Montreal dumped almost five billion litres of untreated wastewater into the St. Lawrence River. The event was called 'Flushgate'.

A year later: Quebec City followed Montreal's lead and dumped millions of litres of wastewater into the St. Lawrence River.

There were no fines. Dumping is the quick and dirty answer to the problem of conducting maintenance work on sewage treatment systems.
Happens here in Australia quiet often.

A river estuary on the southern Queensland coast.

Beaches to the south needing to be closed due to excessive fecal coliform counts.

Yachties in the estuary targetted as culprits, many discharge infringement notices issued.

Yachties avoid estuary but closures persist.

Investigation finds that real culprit is a drain serving a hilly area where rock prevents effective leach drains and septic system overflows and house storm drainage are discharged into street gutters. Storm water flushes fecal coliforms from septic system into street drains and discharges into estuary.

Matter goes silent.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:39   #50
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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Originally Posted by MarkusK View Post
What fines?

November 2015: Montreal dumped almost five billion litres of untreated wastewater into the St. Lawrence River. The event was called 'Flushgate'.

A year later: Quebec City followed Montreal's lead and dumped millions of litres of wastewater into the St. Lawrence River.

There were no fines. Dumping is the quick and dirty answer to the problem of conducting maintenance work on sewage treatment systems.
I have never followed the "logic" in this train of thought, 'cuz there isn't any.

Most sewage treatment facilities are govt owned.

So, the govt fines the other branch of govt.
And the issue isn't the maintenance of the system, it is the size of them; they are too small 'cuz they were built back when the population was much smaller.

The taxpayers pay twice and nothing gets improved.

Why not make them use the fine $$ to make improvements?

Help me out here. How does your "solution" work in reality?
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:01   #51
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Come to Canada to dump your poop ! It fattens up those salmon you's American's love so much.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:03   #52
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

My grand dad used to say "It's a dirty bird that $hits in it's own nest"
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:17   #53
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

.Precisely. Baynes Sound south of Courtenay/Comox is one of the main oyster growing areas in BC. Every time there is a major rain event (several times every fall/winter/spring) DFO ( Fisheries) imposes a sanitary closure on many of the oyster leases because of the increased runoff/elevated toxin levels.

The Courtenay/Comox sewage outfall is outside the Sound, into the Strait of Georgia, and it is a rural residential/agriculture area around the shores of the Sound. BUT lots of septic tanks, probably some old direct discharge, some agricultural runoff and a village system in the surrounding hills that ultimately drains into the Sound through a creek and river. Approx 8,000 people in the area plus approx 4,000 in the village.

The village system (dating from the late 1800's) is a combined system that has greatly increased its collection of runoff water over the years because of more residential development. It overwhelms the system capabilities at least twice a year according to engineering studies. I'm sure that the big rains also negatively affect many area septic systems as well.

Baynes Sound is a NDZ - no problem with that - shallow contained body of water with minimal (by PNW standards) flows with lots of aquaculture. But the human part of the environment otherwise overwhelms the Sound capability several times every year - and NOT during boating season. Boaters are a long way from being a significant part of the problem but I'm happy NOT to contribute further to it.

The political will to fix the real problem is almost non-existent - mired in local jurisdictional squabbles and financing/taxation issues. And the soft target has already been hit.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:01   #54
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Post Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Secondary treatment plants go down, spilling millions of gallons (like West Point in Seatle) and Shilshole liveaboards get targeted. No environmentalist outcry for the real culprit, but we hear bleaing about the poor whales and fish are dying because of those "rich yachties".

Just the other night on the news, they proclaimed, (and I'm quoting exactly), "Washington State has passed a law that boaters can no longer dump human waste in the water."

Uh, mister "news person", that was passed THIRTY EIGHT YEARS AGO in 1980.

Law states that ships coming into Puget Sound must shift to low sulfur fuel before entering.
We often see ships turning the corner from the Straits of Juan de Fuca with a bright yellow exhaust because someone forgot to shift the fuel source, and the yellow trail continues out of sight past Edmonds.

The next day on the news, we hear about terrible air quality in Seattle and they blame it on car traffic and those evil diesel engines.
With a very serious look on the news anchor's face we hear,
"We've got to go after those car manufacturers to reduce emissions".


Back to the boat question, if people actually thought the boating scenarios through, they would stop with this NDZ march and MANDATE treatment systems on boats. This just seems obvious.


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Old 12-04-2018, 12:32   #55
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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First, I've never seen anyone pump out in the rain. So that is a false comparison.

Unfortunately, whoever gave you the 2ppm information was a liar, or at least intentionally told far less than the whole truth. This, summarized from the EPA evaluation of Type 1 heads:

EPA Summary Data (results in mg/L)
Annalyte After Treatment Result EPA Sewage Treatment Standard
BOD5 780 45
TSS 1,000 45
Fecal Coliform < 82 200 (swimming areas)


My statement about 2 PPM was taken from the Raritan website when we purchased our unit a couple years ago. I searched a bit today but didn't find it.

On page 7, of your provided link, the first complete paragraph says the ElectroScan removed almost all pathogen indicators ( 99.99% or greater).

I'd say, that's a pretty good record, and compares favorably with the record of Seattle's West Point.
At least we don't flood our boat waist deep in poop and kill the whole plant for several months and divert a city's output to the Sound when someone doesn't do their job. Oh yeah, then blame the boaters for the pollution....

One more statement from that link on page 38:

"Pathogen indicators generally were not detected in the effluent from the Electro Scan
device. For those samples where pathogen indicators were detected, they were generally found at
concentrations within 10 times the analytical detection limit."
==============

I know my math isn't directly from the Raritan website, but if the maximum legal limit is 40 ppm, that would be concentrations of 4 ppm or LESS.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:40   #56
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Back to the boat question, if people actually thought the boating scenarios through, they would stop with this NDZ march and MANDATE treatment systems on boats. This just seems obvious.
I'd like to hear the rest of the thought. Let's think this through.
  • Minimum boat size? Obviously not kayaks, so at what point is a type I system practical? Portables will always be the only practical answer for some. This could get out of control.
  • The US has been a no-untreated-waste zone within 3 miles of shore and in all bays for 40 years. Thus this is not a change for untreated wastes from holding tanks. NDZs have no impact on holding tank based systems, since NDZs are always inside 3 miles.
  • Therefore, NDZs specifically target type I MSDs. The EPA knows this. So mandating type I MSDs for everybody actually increases the pollutant load (assuming people are following the law), since now more people can be discharged inside 3 miles than before.
Yes, this overlooks the combined sewer problem. First, that is an excuse that won't sell (it's rather like saying "well he's speeding too). Second, combined sewers are only a problem in certain older cities. It is NOT a universal problem.



I'm afraid this dog won't hunt. At least on paper, it seems to hurt everyone. In principle, pollution outside the 3-mile line would drop... but that is not a concern. Additionally, I think they know that 98% of the sailing takes place in bays and within 3 miles.



The problem is that NDZs only affect type I systems, and they arn't that common. Of course, since they only affect type I systems, the environmental benefit is obviously negligible.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:51   #57
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

thinwater,
I agree with your logic, but it's for a perfect rainbows and unicorns world.
It's hard to imagine every single boater never discharging anything into the water.
I don't hang out at the Seattle Hydroplane races or places where boaters all raft up for days, but have heard stories about how nasty the water gets in places like this.
Popular anchorages in Desolation Sound get really awful in August and they're officially NDZ.

Wouldn't a real world solution be better?
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Old 12-04-2018, 13:20   #58
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
".


Back to the boat question, if people actually thought the boating scenarios through, they would stop with this NDZ march and MANDATE treatment systems on boats. This just seems obvious.


composting heads on all of them or just pee over the side directly.
It is still legal to Crap and urinate directly over the side. Its called direct discharge and its legal

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Old 12-04-2018, 13:52   #59
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

I consider myself to be an environmentalist , but I recognize that there are many environmental activists who are quite ignorant and I have no objection to them being called loony. Anyone that espouses a position without understanding it does no service to their cause. That being said do not underestimate the innate stupidity of politicians and journalists. Their ability to ignore the facts is remarkable. Politicians prefer to do nothing while giving the appearance of doing something hence no discharge zones. Journalists aid them by providing headlines that make them appear to have done something when they actually haven't. A few years ago an NDZ was established near Wilmington NC after a report of high fecal coliform counts near a boat ramp. What did they accomplish. They managed to outlaw type 1 msds which are not used by boats that use boat ramps. Did they actually do anything about the small boaters with portable toilets that did not wish to carry them home in their cars. No, that would have required the installation of dump facilities at the boat ramps and that would have cost money. So instead they chose to apply to the EPA for an NDZ. So they got a staffer to fill out some forms and got their NDZ. They accomplished absolutely nothing and the local press gave them headlines similar to those in Seattle. If one has ever had to deal with politicians or the press you will have recognized that we have been living on a society where facts have not mattered for a long time. I have been getting a good laugh every time I hear the term "Post factual".
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Old 12-04-2018, 14:06   #60
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

The logic of the politicians and activists are right up there with animal shelters which would rather kill an adoptable animal than give it a home to someone who they deem "not good enough. It's for the animal's best interest."

Apparently I'm not the only one who feels this way.
These two posts are from 2012 in a different part of the country.
--------------

Mixman:

Once the EPA designates a No Discharge Zone, outlawing the use of marine sanitation device treatment systems, it's permanent, regardless of advancements in MSD technology.

Boat Waste-Treatment Technology - BoatUS Magazine

It appears, at least to me, that EPA tried to run Type I MSDs through tests to show how "bad" they were. But instead got slapped in the face with facts they didn't like: Type I MSDs are good. No Discharge Zones are bad.

----------------
Ghost:

I'm mystified on this issue. It seem so simple. What is a no-discharge zone? It's a method of outlawing the use of sewage treatment systems that ensure that our waterways stay clean. It's the only method that addresses the problem of truly incensing boaters to do the right thing with their holding tanks when away from marina facilities as pump outs only work for boats in a marina.

Make no mistake, this is an issue around politics, not science. The science is clearly in favor of treatment systems. But the political potential to appear to be beating up 1%'s is just too tempting.

NDZ's are the poster child of the failure of the boating community to more effectively get "ahead" of the politics of the issue. This is an issue where we should have the green movement BEHIND us, not against us. We should be packaging this up by pushing incentives via federal & State to push the mandatory use of these devices for boats over 50 feet and incentive discounts for boats under 50 feet for owning one. Doing so would prevent shenanigans in the politics by removing the arguments before they are even made. Let the politicians beat up the 1%'s by mandating these systems, not by outlawing them. How the boating movement ever allowed these clowns to very very effectively control the argument such that the lay person thinks that this issue is about yachts dumping their raw sewage on top of them, well that's just a failure of the boating community to ignore the issue.

BoaterEd - Just what the h*ll is a No Discharge Zone (NDZ)?


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