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Old 11-04-2018, 12:00   #31
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

SF Bay has had the same restrictions for years. Not a problem. Why should Puget Sound have less protection?
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Old 11-04-2018, 12:47   #32
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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It's been going on a long time, we are used to it
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Old 11-04-2018, 13:57   #33
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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The issue for regulators is that the only measurement that matters is whether the total discharge exceeds the carrying capacity. This is measured by water sampling and micro-organism counts. If it is above a set level it means the environment if unable to process the volume discharged.
They then look for the politically and economically softest targets to reduce discharge. Can't do much about dog poo washed of the street, run off from farm land has a high political cost, improving water treatment plants has a high financial cost. Guess who is a soft target to say 'we have done something'
The solution is to install expensive pump out facilities to transfer wast to already inadequate water treatment facilities so THEY can discharge it into the same river - Real joined up thinking there!!!!
Of course this is not going to be a problem for the future as the government seams to be busy dismantleming all the environmental protection it can...


Roland's posting has hit the nail squarely on the head.

I'm embarrassed that Victoria has gotten away for so long without actually treating their waste, and it's still a political fight in that community. Senior M has complained about Seattle but Metro Vancouver may be worse. So here we have 3 of the biggest cities on the Salish Sea ( or the entrance to it) with wholly inadequate treatment systems. But it "improves" the situation if recreational boaters cycle their waste through pumpouts into those systems? The logic escapes me.

I doubt that most smaller community systems are any better.

We frequent Desolation Sound and fully respect the NDZ there as with every other NDZ encountered. I respect that they are in place for valid reasons. Baynes Sound south of Courtenay is the home of BC's shellfish industry and is also a NDZ. There should maybe be more of them. But we don't just go direct overboard everywhere else. Cdn regs say EITHER 3 miles from shore or in the middle of a channel on an ebb tide if you can't get the requisite distance from shore. Three miles from shore is easily found in many parts of the Strait of Georgia - in the same Salish Sea - but not around the myriad relatively unpopulated islands in the north.

We have so few pumpouts in the northern part of the Strait that you'd have to consider them cruising destinations to make use of them - and hope that your "output" was sufficiently restrained to make it between them before the holding tank filled up. And, even if you did, all that is happening is combining your waste with that community's waste and pumping a larger quantity of it into the ocean from that community still with likely inadequate treatment.

However, I do object to the title of this thread,ie, "Loonies ...", unless Senior M was referring to the politicians. I laud the efforts of most people to clean up our water quality - you're not a loonie to want that - and we need more advocates. But lets direct efforts based on that advocacy first to addressing the biggest problems - our city and town sewage systems. We're easy targets as boaters, but the positive return to the environment from that general targeting is negligible imho.
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Old 11-04-2018, 14:21   #34
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Yes you're loonie to be satisfied with window dressing, it's only rational to attack the real source of a problem.

But we have to deal with reality as it presents itself, including political-economic and law enforcement injustices.
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Old 11-04-2018, 14:31   #35
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

The more overpopulated the world becomes, the more restrictive the laws become.
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Old 11-04-2018, 15:04   #36
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

I was referring exactly to the politicians who are just trolling for reelection votes by attacking a soft target instead of doing the hard work of holding metropolitan systems (or complete lack of same) accountable.
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Old 11-04-2018, 15:16   #37
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

I agree that cities and communities bordering the sea should have sewage treatment facilities and, I also believe big ships should have holding tanks; but how far do you want to take this? Will it expand to requiring all marine mammals in the vicinity of the Salish Sea area be fitted with diapers? Don't laugh ... I see the big draft horses hauling tourist wagons in Victoria and Vancouver all use them.

As well, I see that persons using small boats without a marine toilet are instructed to use a portable container and bring their crap ashore. Does anyone really believe that is going to happen?
Think about this; a person decides to go on a sailing adventure out and about the islands in a 10 or 12ft dinghy; he/she is taken short far from shore and, in the absence of a container, decides to relieve themselves over the side and in so doing, is observed by other parties. Does it mean this person will be held in violation of the new rule and subject to a prescribed penalty?
I know of numerous small day-sailers in-equipped with any form of containment who will probably continue doing what they've been doing for a great many years. There is no law compelling one to have a system on board a small boat, and when ya gotta go man, ya just gotta go.

The one thing I learned when visiting the Vancouver Aquarium is, big whales mean really big crap and, with the ban on whaling, we are seeing more and more whales in the Salish Sea.

The powers that be really need to revisit this matter because, in reality, this appears to be a case of bureaucracy gone mad. What about all you folk who like to go traipsing through the bush? What do you do when miles out in the wild and need to poop and not a biffy in sight ... do you use a doggy bag and bring it home? I doubt it very much. No, you drop your drawers and crap right there ... don't deny it, you know you do.
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Old 11-04-2018, 15:46   #38
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

An underlying reason for these troubles is that the PNW is a high rainfall region, and no one has thought, before nowadays, that governments should be considering coherent water management policies, as well as waste.

Yesterday, in the NY Times, I was reading a water management article about how Israel had focused on that issue since before it was a country, getting the most use out of the water they do have, and treating all sewage for agricultural use; seeking new sources of water, plus teaching everyone, from kindergarten up to be aware of water use.

Now, to me, using your water, the way it presently is, is just poor water use. And where i came from (the SF Bay Area) still had shared storm drains and pipes, so rainfall days, particularly on football Sundays, showed huge faecal clumps discharge. Now, human waste can be made into quite usable fertilizer, after the death of the bacteria. Of course, it would involve infrastructure and (gasp!) funding through taxation, but the problems in the PNW could be addressed. We have the capability to have drinkable discharge from sewage treatment plants, and have done so for a long time. Richmond, CA, had one when my son was a Cub Scout.

So at the township level, your city councils should be talking about it; perhaps it would mean selling bonds to get the money to change the systems, maybe adding storm drains, and limiting rainwater flow to sewage lines, and funding for better treatment. Incidentally, Israel processes its sewage for fertilizer, as did Milwaukee, and it still may!

However, as suggested above, there are some discharges that are worse for the environment than feces, but so far, policy makers have not been successful in getting those wastes addressed. Sure, but I'm preaching to the choir here, but at least Americans are mainly not involved politically, but I'm afraid such involvement will be essential for progress. Of course there are dangers, we are susceptible to urges for power, so Greenies can be just as objectionable, if they let themselves be, as any other group agitating for the change they want, especially after they have power. Transparency is the answer, a requirement that is sadly out of fashion.

Yachties are a politically disorganized group, perceived as wealthy, and are an easy target, in part because we ARE apolitical, which gives the lawmakers a very soft target. Now, the choice to believe the propaganda, well, that's another issue, and we're not to talk politics here. But for you guys who are boating in these polluted waters, just remember the pollutions that you mostly cannot distinguish with your eyes are usually the worse ones. It is only our programming that bowel movements are "dirty" that makes us give them priority, but the lawmakers are just as susceptible to the prejudice as the yachties.

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Old 11-04-2018, 16:16   #39
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
The issue for regulators is that the only measurement that matters is whether the total discharge exceeds the carrying capacity. This is measured by water sampling and micro-organism counts. If it is above a set level it means the environment if unable to process the volume discharged.
They then look for the politically and economically softest targets to reduce discharge. Can't do much about dog poo washed of the street, run off from farm land has a high political cost, improving water treatment plants has a high financial cost. Guess who is a soft target to say 'we have done something'....
A pretty good description of the process.

You left out the fact that the regulators generally know it won't work. But as you say, they are asked for options and a politician picks one. They stay quiet, because they have kids in college. You can't criticize someone too seriously for wanting to keep their job. I've been in that hole.
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Old 11-04-2018, 16:29   #40
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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They never fine cities high enough. Millions of gallons go in the sea. Not just Seattle. Fine them and buy boaters any poop system they want with the money. That would show the fallacy of worrying about the boats compared with the cities. Of course this is very typical, if you are big enough, your crimes dont seem to matter if you are a little guy. Ever wonder how most every congressman gets rich way beyond the salary he claims?
What fines?

November 2015: Montreal dumped almost five billion litres of untreated wastewater into the St. Lawrence River. The event was called 'Flushgate'.

A year later: Quebec City followed Montreal's lead and dumped millions of litres of wastewater into the St. Lawrence River.

There were no fines. Dumping is the quick and dirty answer to the problem of conducting maintenance work on sewage treatment systems.
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Old 11-04-2018, 16:52   #41
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

We've spent 5 years as a liveaboard in San Francisco Bay and Puget Sound. Plenty of illegal black water release by people I wouldn't want to know. It's visible and stinks.

Sur it's biodegradeable. So are fossil fuels. But humans as a species don't get moderation.

So I'm a supporter of the sh*t police. Plastic dumping police would be nice to see too. Unfortunately there is zero enforcement.
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Old 11-04-2018, 18:11   #42
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

The issue is more of a concern in an enclosed bay where nutrient overload is bad for the ecosystem. Some of you might also adopt a different opinion on the issue if you were to go regularly into the water, as I do, to clean your bottoms......of your boats.
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Old 11-04-2018, 19:48   #43
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

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As a layperson it is confusing as to why (from an environmental perspective) discharge should be a problem.. you would think poop and urine would be pretty common place in our waterways and oceans. Understandable from a human perspective that people wouldn’t want other people poop floating past their boats.

Reading the article though it looks like this new legislation is just because it interferes with local business interests. There are shellfish farms in the area that are losing money because crops are being rejected for some reason related to the waste.

At least if I understood correctly.
It's about coliform bacteria, and specifically Eschera Coliform(sp?) (E Coli), which is very toxic. They are produced whenever raw human sewage is produced.

I'm not knowledgeable, not more than that. We look forward to someone who's knowledgeable chiming in.
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:12   #44
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

If you eat tomatoes from Mexico, guess what they use for fertilizer.
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:09   #45
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Re: Loonies Got Their Way

https://globalnews.ca/news/3262612/b...irus-outbreak/
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